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Staten, I'm sure that the PALS here who have elected to vent would dispute the comment about living as a "vegetable". Someone in a vegetative state does not have normal human cognitive function. One of the huge differences between this disease and many others is that neurological function remains intact. So while you might be immobile, you are absolutely not in any way, a "vegetable". JMO.
 
On my first visit to the pulmonologist he explained options, was very blunt with what to expect and told me to let him know when I had decided. When I told him i wanted to vent he got a form for me to fill out that states what life prolonging measures i want. I carry this form with me. He never once tried to talk me out of it before or after i made my decision. I really appreciate all of the Doctors, Technicians, nurses and others at the A.LS clinic i go to. They are upbeat, nice, knowledgable and don't beat around the bush
 
mamaofta,
From what I have seen, it is now believed that ALS can and does cause cognative deline. In fact, this year my husband has been diagnosed of both ALS and dementia. They are considered to be related. I have met other caregivers who are also dealing with a loved one with both ALS and Dementia. It is not easy to deal with the decsions of ALS when the PAL may not fully understand what the issues are and the how their life would be impacted by the decions being made.
I am in a situation where I see discusion on venting and PALS deciding if venting is right for them. While I a glad they can process the inforamtion and make a decsion that they feel is right for them and their family, this is not always the case.
I am curious if most PALS who do not have cognative issues would reconsider venting if they knew they would develop cognative issues. The problem is that in most cases, the cognitive issues are already obvious when the ALS diagnosis is made.
 
Wow, Jean! You came up front so strong, and I respect that! I respect Mike's decision, too. I agree with you when you said that everyone is different. Good luck and God bless!

Irma
 
Candi - first of all, I am so sorry that your husband is having to deal with both diagnoses and truthfully, I had no idea that ALS and dementia often go hand in hand. Everything I had read said that cognitive function remains normal. I guess I am mistaken. Would PALS choose to vent if they new cognitive impairment lay ahead? Who knows. That is a really hard question. But I do know that my grandmother had alzheimers disease for 12 yrs and even at the end, none of us considered her to be in a vegetative state. Dealing with that and ALS at the same time however is a whole different deal, especially for caregivers.
 
ZenArcher

Please forgive my ignorance, but what is an Ent?
 
ZenArcher

Ohhhh, I just looked at your thingy:mrgreen:. You know, my middle sis Leeney thinks she is a tree....Maybe I should be paying more attention to what she is saying.
 
Candi you are mistaken in your belief that dementia will follow for all ALS patients. Recent studies have shown that it CAN present itself in up to 30% of the cases. That being said if the patient decides one thing and later can't make their own decisions the next of kin is the final say. up here anyway.
AL.
 
There are a couple issues I would like to weigh-in on.

First, I don't think a pulmonologist is any more qualified to gauge a person’s potential quality of life than any other person who is not currently in the situation. It is inappropriate for them to offer anything more than an unbiased description of what is involved mechanically.

Concerning dementia and end of life decisions, my entire choice to vent hinges on the full functioning of my mind. Jen knows that if I were ever in the position of not being mentally competent, I would be finished living. For me, as long as I can use my mind to its full capacity, I am fully alive. I am not a vegetable.

Mike
 
In my last post I indicated that all PALS would eventually develop dementia. This is not what I intended the post to say. What I meant was that from what I have seen in my research IF dementia does develop, it is usually seen earlier than the ALS Dx. Often times the Dementia is not recognized until after the ALS Dx. In my husbands case, his dementia seems to be far more pronounced than most PALS who develop dementia.
No, he is not a vegetable but he was once highly intelligent, creative and very hard working person. Now he watches the same shows on TV over and over again. There are many things that I don't think he fully comprehends. Since his speech is gone, and although he is able to write, he has extreme difficulty putting his thoughts into words. Communication is very difficult and when he nods "yes" to a question, we are not sure that he really means "yes". In fact, most times if you keep asking and re-wording a question, he will change his answer to a "no".
Not a vegetable but he does not want to be around anyone other than myself and his daughters, does not want to leave the house, no longer reads his finacial, scientific or computer magazines, is no longer interested in the flower gardens he cared for so gingerly and went from not watching TV and especially not sports to spending his day watching TV and even sports.
What would his wishes be for venting etc. I did insist on a feeding tube since I could not watch him choke on every bite and losing weight.
 
Your post makes me want to get my heath care proxy paperwork in order and also helath directives. My DH should have his done, too. It looks like he will outlive me but you never know when that truck I keep talking about comes steaming around the corner just as one of us is stepping off the curb.
 
Hi, this is my first post although I have been reading this forum for several months now. I will post an introduction later, but I wanted to go ahead and comment on this topic.

There are a number of factors to consider in terms of mechanical ventilation, and I think that it is a personal decision that everyone must make for him/herself. Others should respect each person's decision, even though each of us might choose something else for ourselves.

My mother's disease has progressed very rapidly--she was active last summer, but is now wheelchair-bound. When we went to an ALS clinic for diagnosis, we discovered that her FVC was around 50%, but she didn't feel like she was struggling to breathe.

That all changed a couple of weeks ago when she developed bronchitis and could barely breathe. She was admitted to the hospital for treatment, and she ended up on a vent after her CO2 levels were so high that she almost died. She had been there overnight for observation with a BiPap machine, and so the vent was an emergency procedure for which I was not consulted. I received a call to be informed about the vent, and I was told that we would need to make a decision about whether or not she wanteed a trach. Then the pulmonologist called (this was not a doctor we had met before) to discuss the options with me. Without the trach, she would essentially die because the intubation is a temporary measure, and the doctor felt that it would be risky to keep her on it for more than a couple of weeks. He told me that he would respect our decision and that he was prepared to help us either way. He presented the facts about the trach and did not bias us one way or the other, but he did emphasize that she could adapt to the trach and live a good life if that's what she wanted to do. He still stressed that the decision was up to her.

She opted for the trach, and now she is doing better. She will be on the trach for life most likely, but she is headed to a facility that will offer rehabilitation to help her speak and eat again. She does not have upper motor neuron involvement yet, so her speech and swallowing are excellent. Also, she has some upper body strength still. The pulmonologist told us after the trach that he was glad she made that decision because she is so alert and cognizant, plus he thinks she will be able to enjoy life, in spite of the major adaptations that we will have to make.

I wanted to contribute to this discussion because I have indeed encountered a supportive pulmonologist who has been so helpful and encouraging. Yes, this is a major life change, but we feel that she can still have a good quality of life. There are portable vents that allow a person to travel outside of the home, so it's not like she will be "locked in" at home.

My own thoughts about what I would do in a similar situation have changed. I really wanted her to get the trach because I am not ready for her to die yet. She feels the same way. I would have made the same choice if I had been in her exact situation. Yes, this has all happened really fast, but that's actually part of why she opted for the trach. She's still fighting (and kicking, if only figuratively). So my new opinion is that the decision about whether or not to opt for the trach is a rather nuanced and subjective decision. You might have one opinion based on a potential set of circumstances but another opinion if the disease progresses differently. I think that if she were not able to swallow and move her arms, she might have made a different decision, but I do not know for sure.

My advice, for what it's worth, is to consider different options and don't rule out the trach completely. Your decision will most likely be based on a specific event, like a respiratory illness, and it might come sooner than you anticipate. Picture yourself living a day and a week with the trach. Imagine what you would do during that time. Would you watch television, read, listen to music, sit outdoors, or what? Imagine how you might feel as you are doing these activities, and also imagine who is around you. Focus on how your life itself would be, rather than just the ventilator aspect of it. You might still decide that you don't want to get a trach, and that is fine. But be prepared for different scenarios because it might be an "If...then..." situation, with different answers based on what exactly precedes the respiratory failure.

And one final thing: While my mother has been concerned about being a "burden," I have told her over and over again that she will never be a burden to me. I want her in my life as long as she wants to be here, and I am making an active choice to help take care of her. While this isn't how I had imagined my life, neither is the rest of my life, even before she got sick. Ask anyone who lived in New Orleans before Hurricane Katrina, and they will tell you the same thing. We never know what is going to happen and what/who will impact our lives, so to me this is just "one more" life change. Yes, it will take a lot of work and planning, but I am fully committed to doing whatever she needs. We are making sure that I take time for myself as well so that I don't experience burn-out, but for now I am cherishing every moment that I get to spend with a person who has done so much for me. I have told her that we are in this together, and I know that I will grow through the experience. So rather than a burden, I see this as a gift--the gift of time with my mother, and the gift of learning how to be a stronger person.

Good luck to everyone who has to make this decision. It certainly isn't easy, and I respect everyone's personal choice. I just hope that no one gives up simply because of the worry about financial or other burdens. There are plenty of resources out there to help you if you choose ventilation, and I imagine that your family wants to be there for you every step of the way.

P.S. Sorry this is so long!
 
Hi Carolan. I am so glad you decided to join us! You make so many good points about the trach. It is information just like this, that we need around here!

You make so many good points about being a CAL that I almost have to go back and re-read your post!
I see this as a gift--the gift of time with my mother, and the gift of learning how to be a stronger person.
This statement alone helps me explain to myself why I do all I can for my own Mom, who is in the last stages of ALzheimer's. Thank you for sharing your wisdom and common sense with us. Cindy
 
Thanks, Cindy! I have appreciated your posts and contributions to this site, and I know that your mother is lucky to have you.
 
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