The wisdom and paradox of God's love

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Tomswife

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Does God really love us?


"All that is hidden, all that is plain, I have come to know, instructed by Wisdom.… Within her is a spirit intelligent, holy, unique, manifold, subtle, active, incisive, unsullied, lucid, invulnerable, benevolent, … dependable, unperturbed, almighty, all-surveying…. She pervades and permeates all things. She is the untarnished mirror of God’s active power.… She makes all things new. In each generation she passes into holy souls.
—Wisdom 7:21–24, 26, 27, Jerusalem Bible

Richard Rohr believes wisdom arises from living with paradox:

Whenever I teach, I am not trying to change anyone’s dogmas or beliefs, but only the mind with which they understand those dogmas. This new mind has everything to do with seeing and thinking paradoxically—grasping the truth of something that seems a contradiction. Great dogmas of the church are almost always totally paradoxical: Jesus is human and divine, Mary is virgin and mother, God is one and three, Eucharist is bread and Jesus. Because paradox undermines dual thinking at its root, the dualistic mind immediately attacks paradox as weak thinking or confusion, somehow separate from and inferior to hard logic. The modern phenomenon of fundamentalism displays an almost complete incapacity to deal with paradox, and shows how much we’ve regressed. Today the church is trying to catch up to what mystics have always known, and great scientists now teach as well.

The history of spirituality tells us we must learn to accept paradoxes, or we will never love anything or see it correctly. The above passage personifying Wisdom is an insightful description of how one sees paradoxically and contemplatively.

Each of us must learn to live with paradox, or we cannot live peacefully or happily even a single day of our lives. In fact, we must even learn to love paradox or we will never be wise, forgiving, or possessing the patience of good relationships. “Untarnished mirrors,” as Wisdom says, receive the whole picture, which always includes the darkness, the light, and subtle shadings of light that make shape, form, color, and texture beautiful.

Reality is paradoxical. If we’re honest, everything is a clash of contradictions, and there is nothing on this created earth that is not a mixture at the same time of good and bad, helpful and unhelpful, endearing and maddening, living and dying. St. Augustine called this the “paschal mystery.”

Western Christianity has tended to objectify paradoxes in dogmatic statements that demand mental agreement instead of any inner experience of the mystery revealed. At least we “worship” these paradoxes in the living collision of opposites we call Jesus. But this approach tends not to give people the underlying principle that Jesus, the Christ, has come to teach us about life and about ourselves.
Jesus, as the icon of Christ consciousness (1 Corinthians 2:16), is the very template of total paradox: human yet divine, physical yet spiritual, killed yet alive, powerless yet powerful."


 
Suffering is awful yet wonderful. Jesus loves suffering.
 
Colleen... Jesus loves suffering.

You're probably right... millions of children are dying of starvation,
thousands and thousands are dying and suffering from war,
men and women by the millions too. Jesus loves suffering ?

Don't mean to offend anyone but... there's a real world outside
of going to your local church, watching religious programs, reading
the bible and quoting from it. Millions say they pray for those
suffering... yet the suffering goes on and on and on.

Jesus was born a Jew, lived his life as a Jew and died as a Jew.
We made him a Christian hundreds of years later.

Wonder how Jesus feels about that with these far right wing
Christians who will not denounce the current violence happening
to Jewish people in this country and elsewhere.

I'm glad folks find peace and comfort with their deep devotion
and faith to Jesus in their suffering.
 
I am horrified about the treatment of Jewish people. There are so many evil people.
 
I'm horrified about the treatment of the people living in Palestine who are not associated with terrorists.
ALL persecution is evil.
Jesus was persecuted by the Roman Government because they didn't like his popularity and his denouncement of hate and oppression.
God loves everyone. Jews, Muslims, Christians, Atheists, agnostics, gay, straight, trans, black, white, asylum seekers, illegal immigrants, even right-wing conspiracy theorists.
 
Here’s my theory… many say God and Jesus are all powerful.
Many say they are all knowing, past, present and future.

My theory…

Being the suffering goes on and on and on when it comes
to that… here on earth we are on our own.

People are praying and praying, churches big and small
pray in huge numbers every Sunday. It doesn’t seem to
be working (to me).

Beyond my complete understanding some of these mega
(MAGA) churches are actually praying someone gets re-elected.
Would Jesus vote for him? I’m sure Jesus would ask him to
repent. He was asked that and he said NO, in the interview he
said why, he said hasn’t done anything wrong. Stormy?
Jean Carroll, Three wives?

Don’t mean to get into politics here but it goes to my point
point apparently we are on our here.

What could God and Jesus do? I don’t know.

Religion - politics, politics - religion, unfortunately today
religion has got into politics. The Founding Fathers three
times wrote for separation of Church and State.

Did that offend God and Jesus?

PS just in... Headline from Daily Mail OnLine

Pastor Joel Osteen breaks down in tears as he tells congregation
$100m loan to convert NBA stadium into Texas megachurch has
been paid off after just 19 years… Thanks to God’s Money.

(Osteen himself has net worth of $50 million dollars.)

He’s called the former President an Excellent Communicator and
a Good Man. (Communicator of what… hate, revenge, vermin?)

No… the money came from donations, from his near cult MAGA
brain washed followers. "God's Money"... wonder what God
thinks about that one?
 
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Thanks, Kathy. The answer to your question is yes. God really does love us.

Your post referring to Kat Armas touched on this topic, contrasting the carnality of Jesus' birth with the spiritual glory of the coming of the Savior. As Christians, we're certainly confronted by seemingly contradictory doctrines: Predestination or free will? Salvation by faith alone or faith and works?

Al mentioned another - Why does a loving all-powerful God allow suffering? Some have felt strongly that no restoration in the hereafter could justify innocent suffering on Earth. Others believe that suffering is a part of God's plan, and helps us as part of a "refining" process to develop endurance and maturity and compassion.

Rohr describes "thinking paradoxically" as "grasping the truth of something that seems a contradiction". I see it more as being able to recognize that two things which seem contradictory can both be true. It is in our nature to reach conclusions based on incomplete information, and often people will "pick a side" of an issue without fully understanding it. I'm not sure that we are able to fully understand some of these paradoxes of faith in our human state. We don't have enough information. That is why Rohr can say that, "The history of spirituality tells us we must learn to accept paradoxes", because the truth may lie in both, not in either/or.

However,I do not agree that there is an "underlying principle that Jesus, the Christ, has come to teach us about life and about ourselves." Jesus, the Christ (Messiah) came to do God's will, which is to save us.

As Jesus puts it in John 6:38-40 - "For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”

Or as John puts it in John 3:17, "For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him."

When we repent and put our faith in Christ we may learn that we are sinners and need to be saved. Also, Jesus says in John 14:26, "the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you." James 1:5 says, "If any of you lacks wisdom, you should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to you."

But to "teach us about life and about ourselves" was not why Christ came.

Colleen, I don't think that Scripture supports the idea that Jesus loves suffering; rather, it shows him to be compassionate and sympathetic to the suffering of others. He willingly suffered for us but not because he loved suffering.

Al, I'm sure that many agree with your theory that "here on earth we are on our own." But we are not on our own. The fact that there is sin and suffering does not mean that God is not still doing his work in the world. Jesus' words in John 14 above promise that the Holy Spirit will be with us as a teacher and counselor. Jesus also says in Matthew 7:11, "If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him!"

Regards,
 
As you wrote…

(The fact that there is sin and suffering does not mean that God is
not still doing his work in the world.)

I don’t know what you watch or listen to… our world, earth,
right now is overwhelmed with millions of people being tortured,
jailed and tortured, starving by the millions, dying by the millions
of untreated disease, millions of children are dying from hunger.
thousands of women being raped and often murdered after by
waring factors,, millions in jail and prison just because of politics.
Thousands do not come out alive or are severely disabled and no
where to go. There is a real world out there many of us here
are really unaware of or just don’t want to know.

There are 195 countries in this world, Christians comprise just about
one third of the world's population. Are two thirds of the world
population going to be forsaken because they are not Christian?
Would God/Jesus leave those millions and millions forsaken and
denied some kind of heaven or peaceful place?
Would a loving God/Jesus completely forsake them?

What leaves me to ponder… for 50 years billions has poured into
cancer research looking for a cure. Top Researchers, Specialists,
Doctors and Scientists. Yet the dying of that horrible painful
disease goes on. But the cure is still elusive… treatment has
advanced but it is still one of top killers of people in this country.
Where is the help there from God/Jesus? Jesus, when on this
earth, healed the sick and supposedly raised one from the
dead.

I was raised in a very religious family, two Aunts that were Nuns
and a cousin who was a Priest… hardly any of my family ever
left the state and never to another country. In the military I did,
three countries and several states. In the military I worked with
people from all over the United States, different color, different
ethnic backgrounds and religions. Yes, it changed my thinking.

In previous reference… No, I do not believe Jesus and God has
any love for suffering, or that is some sort of a ticket to heaven,
Some may believe their suffering is that they will be worthy
for heaven.

Again, I am glad many people who find comfort, peace and
acceptance in their devout religious belief and keep referring to
scriptures for support. I believe… I just hope “the power” begins
to happen more and soon.
 
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You're right, Al. There is terrible suffering and death in the world. We've always agreed on that. I put the blame for that on people, not God.

What level of interference from God would you be okay with? Surely for the fanatical murderers he could make their guns misfire, or their knives fall off the handles, or make them all get sick. Better yet, change them so they don't think that way. Don't let them choose those thoughts or actions.

What about someone who gets mad in traffic? If they're going to kill someone I guess God should step in. If God makes their gun misfire they might grab a wrench, so better yet, change them so they don't think that way. Don't let them choose those thoughts or actions.

Well, what about if they're just going to break the other driver's nose? Should God stop that? Committing adultery? Cheating on your taxes? Calling someone hurtful names? What about ignoring someone in need? Where would you have God draw the line? Only if death results? Do whatever you want, just don't kill them? That doesn't seem right. What about: you can't hurt anyone? Even indirectly, like if you are stealing money for food for refugees who will starve without it.

It seems to me that at that point God is pretty much running things. Would that be better? It would certainly be different. But we would not be the free, sentient beings that he has made us. We are able to make choices, from the best to the worst that the human mind can imagine.

Some people have thought that it would be better if God did not allow cruelty and persecution and suffering in the world. I don't know. If that's what you are thinking, I can't say you are wrong. But that's not how it is.

What I think I hear you saying is that it is inconsistent for a loving God to allow us to hurt each other so badly, which makes you question that view of God. Fair enough.

But I hope you don't think that people who still believe in God and trust his plans, even though it results in people hurting each other, are somehow indifferent to or unaware of the suffering taking place in the world. I watch the same news you do. The peace and comfort you mention has to do with knowing that we will be with God when we die, and also in serving him now in whatever circumstances he has put us. Believers all over the world work many hours and give billions of dollars to help others because they do care.

I LOVED what you said at the end: "I believe… I just hope “the power” begins to happen more and soon." We may have had different views at times, but I am all in with that. :love:
 
You posted a long post and asking me a lot of questions.
A lot of the questions were in a “what if?”

You wrote…

“We are able to make choices, from the best to the worst that the
human mind can imagine.”
“I put the blame for that on people, not God.”

Ok, following…

As I was taught, and others, God is all knowing… Past, Present
and Future. Wouldn’t that question do we really have free will?
God knows a person is going to murder someone, God knows a
person will road rage and shoot at a car and kill a child, God
knows I am going to compose this post. Am I going to be
punished for it… for questioning his power having a strong
suspicion/belief we are here on our own?

I was also taught God’s greatest gift… is our brain. Did it come
with restrictions? The religion (religious family) that was nearly
forced on me as a child, adolescent and early teenager was to be
engrained not to question?

Your second, third and fourth paragraphs makes me even more
ponder… here, we are on our own.

Yes, I believe, I haven’t discarded everything I was subject to
from my religious family atmosphere and Christian education.

“I watch the same news you do.” as you wrote...

I watch and read national news (even suffer through Fox News)
and foreign publications, DailyMail, BBC, Al Jazeera Bulwark,
Politico, NY Times, Washington Post, Wall Street Journal, CNN,
MSNBC even NewsMax. Not much else to do these days.

Yes, we sometimes disagree and we may have been brought up
differently and we question each others thoughts.

Again, I am glad your faith is so strong and you are strong in
beliefs. Hope you are as good as good can be…
 
Thanks, Al. I think I am. Hoping the same for you as well.
 
Sorry, I was being dense in not grasping that you had already told me your theory that God has left us on our own, which made all my hypothetical questions irrelevant.

I see this as another paradox (relating to Kathy's original post), because while arguing that God allows us to act as we choose, I also believe we can call on God for help.

I look forward to being with him and finally understanding.
 
Yes, heaven could be what we were taught… we could be happy or
surprised what it really is, disappointed with time in purgatory or even
find out we are destined to be reincarnated to do it again, for the better or…
suffer like millions of new born babies born today/tomorrow are now.

We just don’t know for sure. Again, by what we Christians have been
taught but… there a billion others who are not Christians. Now there
is a paradox.

I believe reincarnation is a possibility. (Was Jesus reincarnated ? )
Would one go to the future… or go back in time. Maybe when things
are invented today/yesterday it came from a time of previous
knowledge of it, lived a life when it existed. Life Ever After just could
be reincarnation, not here but another earth like planet. I sure wouldn’t
try to tell God he/she can only do it here. Our universe has billions
of galaxies, very, very old and very new. God can do it anywhere
he/she wishes and as many times, I believe.


We can only hope our faith is true but… we really just don’t know
for sure. I guess we’ll all find out when each one of us passes on.
 
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Sadly, the study of my faith has long laid unattended. I am a "altar boy" of years gone past. (So, now you know I am a backslider Roman Catholic).

Humans are the ONLY creature on Earth that lose about 1 - 2 lbs of weight when they die. No other creature does that. My guess is that the person soul leaves the body. Churches tell us that (but not about the weight loss).

I suggest 3 books about the conflict between Christians and Muslims (not putting anyone down) The Galleys of LePanto, God's Battalions and The more recent Pirates of the (Gold?) Coast.

I am not trying to tell you what to believe, or who to support but I do ask that you check your resources - at least occasionally and find out more information on the issues.

May God Bless and Guide you all.
 
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Jesus taught love. If you study Hebrew, Greek, and Latin, you can really see what the translations mean. Jesus was killed by the state because he threatened their power. He always sided with the poor and disenfranchised.
I think religion has convoluted his message. I can site specific passages and give you translations but people believe what they were taught or what suits them.

I hope everyone can find peace in what they believe.
 
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