Walking and knee position....

[IhavePLS]

Hi everyone,

I have a question about walking and spasticity:

I've always heard it said that one's knees should be only very slightly forward-bent when walking (not locked entirely). As I was walking this morning, and for the very first time, I noted that my knees are clearly more forward-bent than "slightly bent." When I do "press" either leg back, locking my knees somewhat, I can really feel the tightness (spasticity) in both legs.

Said in a different way, if the "ideal" way of walking is to keep your knee unlocked, but at a 2 degree angle, my knees are unlocked, but at at 5-7 degree angle.

Coincidentally, I have moderately severe low back pain and mostly calf pain (both legs) today.

Does anyone else experience this? Or other?

I hope the above makes sense! Would be easier to draw it.

Mike

 

[Port]

Mike, your comments are interesting to me. I notice my legs don't "want" to go as straight as they used to. But if I do in fact get my knee to lock, it is only briefly and then it will spring back out, sometimes with enough reflexive force to drop me down. Like a total knee give way sort of thing. Pretty much the same in hips also...and my lower back always hurts. I don't get the fist clenching thing you guys mentioned....mine is opposite, I can't clench a fist. My fingers want to stay straight and spasticity won't let me do a fist.

 

[Mike in Maine]

Mike,
Due to the spasticity I don’t think I have a joint in the body that is straight, I can straighten them out, but only briefly then right back to the bent position. I'm talking from the jaw down to my feet, with the shoulders, arms and knees being the worse. Even my back is bowed over most of the time. The Baclofen and other meds help, but nothing fixes the problem.

Mike

 

[IhavePLS]

Thank you both for your responses! I looked around the internet after I posted yesterday, and found that "extensor spasticity" would be cause of this issue -- more specifically, spasticity in the hamstrings, which cause the hamstrings to contract (shorten), which would in turn pull the knee outward (or forward). THAT makes sense to me, although I've never really "felt" intense spasticity in my hamstrings -- at least not to the extent that I do in my calves, low back, shoulders, neck, forearms, hands, and feet.

In any event, the role of the calves in "extensor spasticity" was surprisingly left unmentioned -- one would think that went the calves contract, they shorten, causing the knee to bend forward (maybe not).

Mike

 

[zoohouse]

Mike, it is just a matter of what each muscle control. When you want to bend your knee you tense your hamstring, you may feel your calf a bit, but it is just flexing to get the foot ready for the next stride. When you want to extend your foot, your calf is engaged. Also when you look at the way that the muscle attach you will see that the larger muscle attaches at the ankle hinge. It does appear that some of the muscle attach above the knee hinge, but considering the size and weight of the joints you would get foot extension much sooner than knee flexion.

 

[IhavePLS]

Zoohouse, thank you -- makes great sense (more than I could personally ever make from all of this). I feel most spasticity in my calves, but that's not to say that the spasticity is primarily from hamstrings (the larger muscle). Thanks again!

 

[olly]

Mike,this happens in my left leg now and again......funny but last time was a few weeks ago.
Its not all the time and may last a few days to a week or so but....my left knee gives way when I put my foot down making my knee go too far forward. Intresting thing is my left leg is worse for spasticity and clinical weakness in the lower leg.
I wondered why I get this,now I know and I'm not the only one.
One more thing,my knee does feel sore when this happens which I think is due to pressure on the knee because of its position when the foot hits the floor,maybe also as my left foot tends to slap down hard a bit.

 

[IhavePLS]

Hi Caroline! So nice to hear from you!

Not that I'm pleased that you have this issue as well, but it is good to know that another PLSer -- like yourself -- shares the issue.

And Caroline, I'm no doctor (not the medical kind anyway), but it would seem logical that your soreness relates to spasticity....and the spasticity is rooted in the hamstrings (and calves?) as was posted above. To be honest with you, I don't ordinarily feel the spasticity in my hamstrings -- although I would suggest that I probably DO have spasticity anyway....it's just that I'm used to it.

I went on a short walk today, and I thought to myself how complex this crazy disease really is.....physically and emotionally, there is so much to handle, so much to contend with, so much to do. As I walked, I was struck -- for the very first time -- with a startling thought:

"I have to think about how I walk. I have to think about how I walk."

And I was again reminded of the the implausibility -- likely, the impossibility -- of my ever again being capable of separating this dreadful disease from who I am as a person.

It is now who I am.

 

[Mike in Maine]

Mike,
I have to disagree with you,
"And I was again reminded of the the implausibility -- likely, the impossibility -- of my ever again being capable of separating this dreadful disease from who I am as a person.
It is now who I am."

Bet if you ask your friends, co-workers, students and family, the same old Mike out shines the PLS on most occasions. I know the effects of PLS touch everything I do every day; but my crusty old Master Chief personality still is who I am (even when crying for no reason). I’m sure if you asked your students they would say the same as would my old Sailors. Hang in there, the PLS may be part of what contributes to what defines who we are or become, but it in no way should it become who we are. Life is too good for that!
Mike

 

[04grace2]

I am very thankful for everyone on this site. I have learned so much from you! I wanted to ask about a problem with walking that I have had lately. It started a few months ago. My right ankle gives way when I am walking which causes my leg to buckle. I am pretty sure that it is not from weakness. It feels more like the spasticity in my leg pulls on the tendons in my ankle and causes it to give way. I was wondering if anyone else have this problem. It also pulls my right thumb in towards the palm of my hand at times, so I am thinking that it is all spasticity related.

 

[IhavePLS]

Hi Mike,

I'm sorry, as I don't believe that I conveyed my thoughts very well. I didn't mean for the self-defining thought you refer to above as being a negative thing, necessarily (which it quite clearly is).

Rather, my intent was to convey my self-surprise o) when learning what should have been (at least for most persons anyway) blatantly obvious.

Must be a few subliminal "denial" defenses still at work (somewhere around a working part of my primary motor cortex)!

Mike

 

[kfletcher]

My left knee hyper-extends backwards....I am hardly walking now, but even to stand it is so hard to get my leg/knee to straighten or lock into place so that I casn stand upright.
Everyone that sees it is worried that my leg is going to snap in half....I guess if it hurts I'm used to it, because I don't notice it.

 

[Maddy]

Kfletcher, my knees hyperextend too! As a result I have swelling behind my knees.

04grace2 my left thumb pulls in toward my palm too. That's the shortening of the arm tendons causing that I believe

 

[old dog]

This discussion once again shows how this disease affects each of us in a different way. My right knee (bad side) hyper-extends backward, throwing my hips and lower back out of alignment, causing lower back pain. The left knee is starting to do this from time to time, also, although only when trying to stand. If I can grip something (counter top, walker) and keep my back straight, I can stand without pain.

 

[MaxEidswick]

>his discussion once again shows how this disease affects each of us in a different way

You can say that again! And also let me be thankful for what isn't happening to me