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Robert,

I happy that they are not even thinking ALS.

If you go to the MDA website and look at a list of their diseases. Under METABOLIC DISEASES OF MUSCLE
I believe this is what your dr is referring to as metobolic, you can only detect most of them in a muscle biopsy.

Hang in there,
 
hi robert

sorry for my late arrival on your thread.
good to hear your emg was ok.
i was thinking some neurological illnesses are a mix.
take ms,it autoimmune and inflamitory.
from what i have read about cipd it is a peripheral version of ms, which ms effects cns.
i was sent to a rehumatologist first when i started with the muscle spasm's.
then developed other neurological symptoms like foot drop,so was sent to a neuro.
all my rehumo tests ruled out inflamitory or autoimmune.
but recently i found out about polymyelitis and inclusion body myelitis.
the inflamation process in these don't show up in inflamitory tests,they need to do a muscle biopsy which show these .
they can have some symptoms similar to mnd.
word of caution.........be carefull with the iburofen,they can cause stomach problems.
i used to be on them many years ago due to a injury of my left elbow as a child,it left my arm difformed and limited use(perminantly dislocated).
long term use of iburofen is not good,i don't take them anymore.
hope your biopsy goes well.
take good care.
caroline:-D
 
Thank you all for the kind words and encouragement. It means so much to me to know that there are people far and near who hope and pray for the best.

I finally have a little more time now that work is done, and the kids are in bed.

For the most part I felt like the trip was helpful, however there were some things I felt frustrated that they didn’t probe, and I have some questions about the direction Dr. Singleton recommended taking.

The neurological exam was pretty straightforward. No abnormal reflexes (though they did not test for a couple I thought they would like jaw jerk), and no impaired motor skills. No clinical weakness, though strength is so relative. Like most dad’s, at my best I could lift my oldest over my head, moved the washer and dryer into their nook by myself, and took the scouts on a 50 miler. Even on a bad day I think I can resist the petite twenty something resident trying to push my foot in a direction I don’t want it to go.

The doctor did probe more by asking me how I felt in terms of my maximum strength, and how long it took me to recover after exerting myself. He did not seem to do anything other than note the sensory symptoms, and anything related to swallowing (this was the part I found frustrating). In fact he said he was not sure how the swallowing fit in. What he said was most important was finding out the type of cause to formulate treatment options. Though I was frustrated, it did make sense to me.

Here is where he began speaking in terms that are a little different from what I am accustomed to (And if I was one of his medical students I would have been furiously taking notes with an outline labeled “A, B, C…”). He said that as far as muscle fatigue, weakness, and cramping goes there are basically three types of causes: autoimmune, metabolic, and inflammatory. I guess this is where my first set of questions comes in, and I’m probably appealing to someone with medical experience, or who has done a fair amount of research.

1. Does this framework contemplate ALS? I ask because the dr. was not really worried about ALS, and I was wondering which box he would put it in, or if it goes in a different box altogether.

2. If it does, which of the three types of causes would ALS fit into? I have heard thought that it might be autoimmune, though this seems to be more of a working hypothesis for a branch of research. The way I understand metabolism is that it deals with the release of energy on the cellular level. I ask this question because the dr. felt that the testing done before the U of U ruled out autoimmune causes (which is interesting because up until my consult, both my PCP and my local neuro mentioned it as a possibility). He also felt the EMG pointed away from metabolic causes, though he wanted to perform the biopsy to be sure.

3. Where does CIDP, peripheral neuropathy, and MG fit in this model? These have all been possibilities for me at some point, and I wanted to how the testing done so far fit in.

In the end Dr. Singleton felt that the best next steps were to perform a muscle biopsy (to rule out metabolic causes), and to have me see a rheumatologist. He reason was that he felt that my issues were likely to be related to an inflammatory cause. So I guess this is where my next set of questions comes in for those who have been referred to a rheumatologist as well as part of diagnosing their particular illness:

A. What types of inflammatory diseases are there that your rheum was looking for? I guess this is where I really get lost because I thought that rheumatologists dealt with connective tissue and immunology. Apparently, like in the case of CIDP, you can have inflammatory issues with the peripheral and central nervous system as well. Plus I thought that something like CIPD was considered to be both inflammatory and immune system related.

B. Do inflammatory diseases present with sensory symptoms like tingling and vibration? Gosh I hate to throw this in there, but what about twitching and fasciculation? (Laurel has already mentioned previously that CIDP is one that does).

If any can help me get this sorted out I would appreciate it.

Sorry for the long post. It just seems to be a crossroads moment for me right now, and we all know that unless you are actively involved in your health care you can twist in the wind for a long time.

Robert

I'm glad to read what you have written since you got home. It does seem that Dr. Singleton is perhaps considering polymyositis or some sort of vasculitis. Concerning your questions, you ask where ALS fits into the framework he mentioned. Now that is a hard one. I think in essence ALS is in a category of its own since the mechanism causing death to nerve cells in ALS is unknown. But it seems that it isn't really on Dr. Singleton's differential diagnosed. list from what you say, and that is likely due to his exam, EMG, and reports that you brought with you. So that is very good.

I am a little puzzled why he seems to have ruled out autoimmune. That doesn't fit for me. If he is looking an some sort of inflammatory thing, I think autoimmune is a frequent culprit whether it be CIDP, rheumatoid arthritis, etc. I think that inflammatory diseases do present with sensory symptoms like tingling and vibration as evidenced with CIDP patients and rheumatoid arthritis patients. I have met one polymyositis patient who was getting IVIG at the same time as my husband and I believe he had sensory symptoms. He told me it had had 3 years of going to doctors, lost muscle strength, lost quite a bit of weight, and almost couldn't work anymore before he got diagnosed. He actually had thrown in the towel over diagnosing and had done his own research on the internet and then took his conclusion into the doctor. She ran the tests and basically said "by george you're right. You have polymyositis and we're admitting you to hospital ASAP". Shakes ones faith a bit doesn't it?

We found by requesting a written copy after each specialist visit we learned 75% more than we did at the actual doctors visit. Everything they think and didn't say to you is in the written report. It can be a little galling. I remember my husband's first visit at the neuromuscular disease unit and I asked out and out about ALS and was told no. We got the report and it was one of the differential diagnoses. And then on his third visit there, the neuro. said that perhaps CIDP was moving down the list and ALS up the list. It is all so nerve wracking Robert. But make sure you ask the doctor at each visit whether you may have a copy of his/her report. They always say yes. And then on the way out tell the receptionist that the doctor okay'ed you getting the report. We have had to phone and remind them two weeks after the visit to send us a copy. Those copies are vital to have in your hands. We twisted in the wind for several years by not being pro-active and assertive. Keep us posted please. And thanks for taking the time to report back when you were likely pooped from all the traveling.
Laurel
 
Hi Robert, I kept thinking about your earlier post, and just turned the computer back on to re-read it. I see that Laurel has posted now as well. I just don't get why this doctor separated inflammatory from autoimmune. Autoimmune is inflammatory, although maybe it is because inflammation can come from other sources as well. (?) It is strange to me, and I did not get the impression that you'd had that much rheumatic screening or testing done. It takes a LOT to rule autoimmune out as a possible cause (speaking from experience!)

Its just wonderful news that ALS isn't even in his list of considerations, and has already started a treatment experiment with the ibuprofen, although I wouldn't stake that much hope on just this one medication alone.

Laurel gave you good advise about getting a written report from you visit (and all appointments). I always get one after a visit at Hopkins, and it is clarifying to read what she has written for the other doctors.

Are you being referred to a rheumatologist at the university? It seems you may have said your home town does not have many that practice in this field, and its super important you go to one that will listen to you, and has the willingness to pursue that avenue with some energy.
 
Crystalkk - Thank you for the link. I will read the information for more background. It seems like many of the metabolic diseases are genetic or have a genetic predisposition.

Olly - Thank you for the background and filling in from your personal experience. I know what you're saying about ibuprofen. I take Nexium for reflux, and every doctor I talked to asked me if I was a regular ibuprofen user, then chastised me when they found out I was using it on a regular basis for headache. After my endoscopy I stopped using it altogether unless I got a show stopping, brain pounding, headache at work.

When the specialist at the U of U first asked me about ibuprofen, I thought I was going to get the typical lecture about burning a hole in my stomach. That's when he asked me to try the experiment making sure I took it with food or milk.

Laurel - Hearing you mention that the inflammatory diseases can present with sensory symptoms is very reassuring to me. The whole time Dr. Singleton was mentioning it I was wondering, "But can that make my leg feel like a phone is ringing inside it."

I know what you mean about medical records. Reading through mine in preparation for the trip was a real eye opener. It is really amazing what you take away from the consultation compared to what the Dr. takes away. It also showed me how much the Dr.'s what they thought was relevant, or chose to ignore.

Rose - I am going to give the rheumatologist my local neuro picked out a shot. Unlike the U of U consult for the NMD clinic, I think I'm going to have to at least go through the motions of giving an "on network" rheum a chance before my insurance will let me go running back to Utah (follow-ups with neurology shouldn't be a problem though). Based on what everyone is saying I'm going to read through Dr. Singleton's detailed notes when I get them. Both my wife and I heard that autoimmune was out, but everyone else I talk to (including my local dr's) seem to think that ruling it out is premature.

Thanks again for all the feedback. You all are wonderful.

Robert
 
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Robert,

Sometimes they can be sporadiac. I just seen a case on medical mystrey of someone having one of them and no one in the family had it. And also genetics has to start somewhere.

I also agree with the polymyositis, it is a inflammatory muscle disease and can cause swallowing problems, along with pain and cramps muscle fatique.
 
I'm glad that Crystal and Laurel brought up the polymyositis, I'd meant to mention it too. About the ibuprofen. Originally, when first seeing the rheumatologist, as a first step in treatment instead of the ibuprofen he gave me a scrip for Mobic. It is only taken once a day, so with a prescription insurance plan should cost you a lot less, and I believe it is safer for your stomach. You might ask your primary care doc about it, especially if you already have reflux. also, taking prilosec otc for the two weeks that you're on the ibuprofen would give you protection....
 
HI RObert,

I posted on my own thread and you may want to read. I got alot of what you get. That is may be autoimmune or this or that. To go see a rheumy and I did.

I can tell you what my neuro told me that all those disease you mention would show on a emg and/or biopsy. I think that biopsy would be good. Make sure they get a good size piece, mine was and it was from leg and I was down for a few days.

my biopsy was not conclusive for any of those or for als. My emg was clean. I dont really know anymore.

Good luck,

april
 
I will have to look into alternative anti-inflammatory meds. Thank you for the suggestion.

April, I read your update, and posted a little more there. I hope you can feel the outpouring of concern for you. I know its not easy to wrestle with illness that seems to impact every element of daily life. I am looking at having a friend perform the biopsy, and am finding some comfort in that.

Robert
 
I will have to look into alternative anti-inflammatory meds. Thank you for the suggestion.

Robert

Yeah, or just take the prilosec. I honestly feel that ibuprofen is more effective than the Mobic, (just gaging by my general aches and pains) you really should protect your stomach though, and I'm surprised that the neuro didn't advise you about that during your appointment.

Here's to the hope that you're going to have some improvement to report, very soon!:)
 
Quick update,

SO I have been taking 400mg of ibuprofen every 4 hours for about a week now. I guess the results have been mixed :neutral:. I feels like it has made controlling my tongue a lot easier (it doesn't feel so enlarged and stiff), and I seem to swallow a little better too. My general energy level has been a little better, but I have been away from work for a good portion of the experiment. I've had a lot less overall soreness.

What hasn't changed is the tw*****ng, and sensory symptoms. I still can get the occasional stiff sore spot, it still feels like stuff is moving in my legs, and I still have the sensory symptoms.

I am working to set up the muscle biopsy. Labor day weekend didn't do much for speeding that up. I did get to spend the weekend hunting all over Northern Wyoming and Southern Montanna looking for little girls size 9 ballet shoes. Yes she does look adorable, and yes I'll have to post pictures when I can.

Robert

PS I have a kind of geeky question to ask. I've seriously been thinking of setting up a matrix to help me keep track of diagnosed options, and make sure I'm asking the doctors the right things. I can be a little type A when I do something like that, and I just wanted to make sure I wasn't going to far overboard. It's not the sort of thing I think I'd ever show to a doc because I would be afraid it would scream hypochondriac .
 
YOu are right, dont show it to the docters! but keep for yourself. After the last appt and how upset I felt with the doc, my husband said 'lets take photos of your area's that you are concerned about and we can monitor it', that was a good idea.

Anyway, When I have taken motrin like that, it helped with my throat issue also. I had alot of throat issue's and I just remebered that I went to the ER thinking that my throat was gonna close up and the ER doc (who happens to live on my street and I was horrifed to run into him) said I had pharyngitis (sp) and gave me motrin and it worked!

Who knows with all this! I have that with my legs at night or in the am, i do have during the day but I do not notice it, maybe it there. I am now rubbing my feet together like a cricket when I wake up and it is driving my hubby crazy! I have never done this before! My friend said that she has RLS and takes medicine for it and it works. At night her legs would jerk and move but not the rest of her body, just legs. (darn) and the medicine works.

Ok, what else do you have a spead sheet of? JK< I think that it is great to be orderly, my husband and I both lack in this area.
 
Hello

Hey Robert- Just wanted to say hello and that I have been following your situatiuon. I am glad that they are not thinking ALS.

CB from Ohio
 
not geeky at all

Robert (aka planning guy)

A matrix is perfect, and in fact I have been thinking the same thing as I obsess on differential of MND vs PD . I can see it conceptually, list of symptoms across the top row, list of possible diagnoses down the first column, grayed out boxes in cells to indicate to user that symptom doesn't go with that particular diagnosis, perhaps a particular color in a cell if it is bizarre, seemingly belonging to no diagnoses for the time being, etc...I NEED one myself, but don't have the (cognitive) energy to create one. I just can not fill in the details. Every differential "list" I stumble across is linear, how can that possibly be helpful as a representation? At least 2-D is needed. Please please share if you work on one...

NOT Geeky. Smart! Not hypochondriac, but organized, logical! I may have missed it in previous posting, but are you in the natural sciences? I mean really, the vocab "matrix" suggests it (NOT just a movie!)

Lydia
 
Robert, when I read what you wrote, I was so encouraged for you! Back when I was trying the anti-inflammatory experiment, my doctors wanted to see an improvement "somewhere" not meaning everywhere, or of all symptoms. This is a very good thing. You made my evening by posting this.

... so.... did you find the ballet slippers? And you're right, you'd better post the pictures! :)
 
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