Read This about EMG & ALS

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HI Rose,

I didnt notice that you posted on there about your own leg, I am impressed that you figured that out! I was bragging to my niece about finally getting photo's on line and she was like "I knew that 4 yrs ago", she is only 15 now. We are behind on the times. My next new thing is to get a ipod and down load songs!

***does your leg twitch like that all the time? The twiches I feel and when I see them look like that but do not happen that many times in a row.....yet

thanks rose~~you are a great lady.

april
 
Hi Rose....OK, It's sad to say that it was neat to watch, because you know the end result...., but that's what my body does in the spots it fasciculates. Never thought to record it.

The top of my left knee has a nasty fasciculation, but the movement goes vertically. It will happen for a few days and then disappears for weeks. That knee has swelling with an indentation at the top of knee cap.

Thanks for letting us into that personal part of your life.
 
Opps

Got a glimpse of the outside of my lower arm in a mirror a couple days ago, and my jaw dropped. It looked like half my arm was gone! I think perhaps the lighting made the shadows more obvious, or I just had not looked in a mirror at the outside of my arm for a long time. The atrophy seems to be moving faster than the weakness, BethU

It's pretty bad when you start quoting yourself, but I just got back from the UCLA clinic, and in fact, I don't have ANY atrophy on that arm! I guess I had just never really looked at it before in a mirror.

The doctor who examined me found only two spots of atrophy, both about the size of a dime, one on my left hand, one on right. My left index finger is still funky, and there is weakness in both left arm and leg, but not too bad yet.

My lung capacity has actually improved in the last two months, which I attribute to the 8 pounds I've gained and the Diet Coke!

They're talking about a feeding tube now, which is fine with me.

The neuro (#2) who diagnosed me with Progressive Supranuclear Palsy a year ago, was not wacko after all. When I talk about my swallowing problems on this forum, I guess I've never mentioned that my BIGGEST problem is initiating the swallow. Usually, when I try to take a pill, it stays in my mouth so long while I try to get a swallow going, that some pills just dissolve. This happens with fluids, too. I just assumed this was how ALS works. But the neuro today said that trouble initiating movement is a characteristic of PSP, not ALS. Also, I almost fell twice in the exam room (that's new), and falling is characteristic of PSP. Boy do I owe that neuro an apology if he was right about PSP.

They also said that I have indications of FTD, so I'll be doing follow-ups on that.

The speech pathologist said that I have "bits and pieces" of so many different neuro problems, from the blurred & double vision, to the PSP symptoms, to FTD, to ALS, etc., that I'm the kind of patient who drives doctors nuts. (It's the least I can do, considering what they put us through. :) )

So who knows what the heck is going on besides ALS.

Also, got my husband to a neuro yesterday (my neuro #2, the one who diagnosed me with PSP), and he said Paul has signs of Parkinson's, not MS. He asked me a lot of questions about things I didn't know were symptoms of anything but old age, and of course I Googled Parkinson's when I got home, and every one of Paul's current symptoms fit Parkinson's. I so hope it's that, not MS, although we're not talking picnic in the park with either one. But Parkinson's does have some treatments that help.

Thank you all for bearing with me on all this!
BethU
 
Let me be the first to say " Well that sure casts a different light on a whole bunch of things" That must make you wonder whether to laugh or cry. Simply amazing. Not sure what to say other than hang in there.

AL.
 
Al, I'm going for the world record. "Most neurological diseases you can cram into one person." :)
 
You've got my vote. LOL.

AL.
 
oh, egad. ... here's my "double vision while reading" symptom (from Wikipedia on Progressive Supranuclear Palsy)

Difficulties with convergence, where the eyes come closer together while focusing on something near, like the pages of a book, is typical. Because the eyes have trouble coming together to focus on things at near, the patient may complain of double vision when reading

And, boy, have I complained about it! I've told 7 neurologists about this symptom so far ... that it kicks in only when I'm reading or holding things close ... and in every case, they hold up their hand about 4 feet away from me and say, "Do you see double?" And I say, "No, it only happens when I'm reading," and they shrug and change the subject.

OK, that's 2 symptoms ... initiating swallowing and double vision while reading. 2 1/2 if you want to count losing balance, which is just now starting.

I think my whole brain is getting ready to explode. :)

BethU
 
BethU et al

I second what Al said. Its so amazing, that its hard to know how to take it all in! Especially the vision question really, truly needs to be addressed. If this is a hallmark of this kind of palsy, then someone needs to acknowledge it and explore that more. When you add that to the swallowing, and now balance, it would be so much easier if that could be all one tidy package, but then you've got the other symptoms. Hopefully, because the really good doctors love a challenge, you'll hold their interest and maybe finally get somewhere!

But, enough about you, lets talk about me (LOL)

Only kidding. But I DO have EMG related news today. I went to Mt Sinai for a repeat EMG of my vocal cords. Remember, (or not, depending on how much one has read my posts) that last autumn, chronic denervation and renervation was found in all muscles that operate the vocal cords (and these are cranial nerve controlled). Then in April an EMG on my tongue was performed, but the guy stuck my tongue way in the back of it, and all of the visible atrophy and most of fascis and twitching are in the front. it came back normal. My neuro at Hopkins seemed kind of irritated that he didn't do it where the atrophy was, but she shrugged it off, as the tongue and vocal cords are both in the bulbar region, so for diagnostic purposes it didn't change things. Anyway, today they also stuck my tongue.

I'm now in the same murky waters as Beth is. Well, not actually the same murky waters, I have my own murk. My vocal cords showed the denervation, but there was no longer any active renervation going on. My doctor said it might possibly be just where they happened to catch me in the cycle.. But, as there isn't a dramatic worsening of these muscles, and its been almost a year, they really don't know why the findings. But, my tongue had the denervation and renervation. :)twisted:)

in a little less than two weeks I'm going back there (locally in NYC) to have another EMG on my limbs. This way, when I get down to Hopkins for my first ALS clinic visit, they should have all of the latest and greatest test results.

I was frustrated with the lack of clarity in their findings, (stating the obvious here!) And I so want for someone to at least attempt to give me a prognosis. All of the doctors have settled on motor neruon disease, and I guess if the EMG on my limbs comes back as they expect, it may change to ALS, but what kind of ALS? If its bulbar onset, why did that part ~ or at least my vocal cords stop progression, could that technically be considered a plateau? and why the much quicker, increased problems with my legs? (I actually asked that, and got the standard "motor neuron disease progression varies from individual to individual" reply)

And, as Beth was talking about eyes, I've been having fluttery fascics near my left eye. and the neuro at Hopkins thought I had weak eye closure. I thought eyes were exempt (I know, I know, except when they're not). and, I've been having these scull squeezing spasms in my cheekbone area, like an invisible vice is squeezing my face. They're different than the crampy "laughed too much" spasms that I get more in the fleshier parts of my cheeks . What the heck is with that?

I guess I'm back to the "oh no, what if they're missing something, and I'm actually treatable! "....mode again.

Beth, I agree that Parkinson's isn't the best option out there for your hubby, but its better than ms, and if there can be some treatment given to make him feel better, that's the goal, right?

That's funny about your upper arm! How often do we actually look at them? Then there are our tongues, and soles of feet, we just don't care what they look like, until we care.

I really don't know what to think about the newest with you. Just know you've got many friends here pulling for you!
((:)))))
 
Hi Rose....OK, It's sad to say that it was neat to watch, because you know the end result...., but that's what my body does in the spots it fasciculates. Never thought to record it.

.

its ok to say it, its true, its neat to watch in a disturbing way.... I thought it might help someone by adding the link on this forum. It should probably have been on the fasciculations and twitching sticky, but this is close enough :)

If you can capture what's happening with yourself with a camera, it could be of interest to your doctors. That is why I did the uploads to YouTube, because my neurologist down at Hopkins had asked me to email her the videos, and I couldn't figure out how to compress them to send via a regular email.

I hope you get some answers soon!
 
I second what Al said. Its so amazing, that its hard to know how to take it all in! Especially the vision question really, truly needs to be addressed. ((:)))))


Thanks for your support, Rose! And welcome to my bafflement!

I'm trying to focus on my second EMG that some pretty good neuros said was ALS, "no ifs ands or buts." For me that's the bottom line. "OK, we know one thing for sure. There's ALS present and progressing."

Don't know how they diagnosed PSP. MRI ? Would it show up? These other possibilities would have to be add-ons. A pinch of MG, a half cup of PSP, a couple tablespoons of FTD. Seems all I'm missing is PMS! Pretty soon, I'm going to run out of alphabet!

I go back to the clinic in December, and I think I'll present this as a puzzle to them then, and see if anybody agrees that because these symptoms of different diseases showed up at about the same time (or in a steady progression, actually) this could be a clue to connections among these very similar diseases that researchers haven't explored.

Meanwhile, OF COURSE! there is no cure and very little treatment available on PSP. Some Google article said that the the survival rate for PSP is about 7 years.And if ALS has a survival rate of 3-5 years, does this mean I can add them together, and get a survival estimate of 10 to 12 years! :) Or would I have to subtract them.

AAaaarrrrrrrrrrgggggggghhh
bethU
 
Hey BethU,
I think you should try multiplying the numbers - 7 X 3 for instance = 21 yrs! Seek to set your own new record!

My prayers remain with you always, and rose, april, renee and all the rest of the bunch!

I went to my second ALS support group meeting tonight, it was actually very informative and I met some cool caregivers! I hope to bring my hubby to the next one, mainly so he can take lessons!

Hugs to all,
Keep the faith,
brenda
 
Beth- I love your sense of humor. I see it gets you through a lot. Hugs, Cindy
 
My doctor said it might possibly be just where they happened to catch me in the cycle.. But, as there isn't a dramatic worsening of these muscles, and its been almost a year, they really don't know why the findings. But, my tongue had the denervation and renervation. :)twisted:)
in a little less than two weeks I'm going back there (locally in NYC) to have another EMG on my limbs. This way, when I get down to Hopkins for my first ALS clinic visit, they should have all of the latest and greatest test results.
I was frustrated with the lack of clarity in their findings, (stating the obvious here!) And I so want for someone to at least attempt to give me a prognosis. I thought eyes were exempt (I know, I know, except when they're not). and, I've been having these scull squeezing spasms in my cheekbone area, like an invisible vice is squeezing my face. They're different than the crampy "laughed too much" spasms that I get more in the fleshier parts of my cheeks . What the heck is with that?
I guess I'm back to the "oh no, what if they're missing something, and I'm actually treatable! "....mode again.

Rose, I didn't mention your murkiness in my previous reply because I was so bewildered by this latest turn of events I couldn't focus on anything else, but I am so sorry you're still going through this diagnosed guessing game, too ... along with so many of us on this forum. Hopefully, your next EMG will clarify things. It feels like everytime we're about to make a touchdown, someone moves the goal posts!

What I'm trying to figure out is do I have ALS plus PSP, or PSP instead of ALS or just a few random PSP symptoms. From the little I know (and it seems littler every day), PSP is a form of dementia ... it's related to Mad Cow, which figures. Someone was bound to come up with Mad Cow for me someday! :)

I don't know if PSP gives a dirty EMG reading such as I got. Don't know if it causes one-sided weakness. Don't know if it causes muscle atrophy.

What I DO know is that all neurologists should be made to take an oath before they get that degree: If a patient presents with 5 symptoms, and 4 of them make a tidy diagnosed but the 5th doesn't fit, I hereby promise to keep looking until I find something that fits all 5!

BethU
 
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Rose, I didn't mention your murkiness in my previous reply because I was so bewildered by this latest turn of events I couldn't focus on anything else, but I am so sorry you're still going through this diagnosed guessing game, too ... along with so many of us on this forum. Hopefully, your next EMG will clarify things. It feels like everytime we're about to make a touchdown, someone moves the goal posts!

What I'm trying to figure out is do I have ALS plus PSP, or PSP instead of ALS or just a few random PSP symptoms. From the little I know (and it seems littler every day), PSP is a form of dementia ... it's related to Mad Cow, which figures. Someone was bound to come up with Mad Cow for me someday! :)

I don't know if PSP gives a dirty EMG reading such as I got. Don't know if it causes one-sided weakness. Don't know if it causes muscle atrophy.

What I DO know is that all neurologists should be made to take an oath before they get that degree: If a patient presents with 5 symptoms, and 4 of them make a tidy diagnosed but the 5th doesn't fit, I hereby promise to keep looking until I find something that fits all 5!

BethU

Well., I really like the oath. Although it would cause even more frustration out there for those that were willing to let the extra pieces of the puzzle stay in the lid of the box. See, that's what you have is extra puzzle pieces, it isn't like you have gaps in the puzzle, that the doctors need more pieces to make a determination. No noooo you've got a plethora. ... I think that Wright could be of some assistance explaining about PSP. I'm pretty sure it is treatable. I believe that at one time Caroline (Oily) explored this too.

As for me, I think this just caught me when I was having a down moment. I'd love to have the possibility raised by my doctors that I don't haver MND, but they didn't do that. I get the "its so unpredictable" speeches instead. When I go back down to Hopkins, maybe I will find out how significant it is that the denervation/reinnervation cycle at the moment anyway, is suspended in my vocal cords, and whether that is a plateau by definition, I think that if actual improvement had been found, it would have been a major finding, but that wasn't the case either.

I still have a fear that something hasn't been considered, or something is mis-interpreted, such as your perception of swallowing difficulties compared to what most people mean when they say that. ~ and no one knew, it was assumed by you as well as your doctors that you each had the same meaning attached to it, and it turns out you didn't. BTW, the feeding tube would be a "go" for me too. No hesitation when it comes to that concept. ....

I think that you can't just (figuratively) lay down and accept the ALS diagnosis, regardless of the EMG, unless some neuro can connect the dots and show you that your extra added bonus symptoms can't change that.

Here's to hoping for improvement in your hubby asap, and enlightenment for your docs. You're bound to have piqued the interest of someone enough for them to pursue it. :)
 
Happy Labor Day Weekend, everybody ....

Just an update: After Googling my little heart out, it turns out that the speech pathologist was wrong when she told me that difficulty initiating a swallow is not a characteristic of ALS. It can apparently be found in both ALS and MG as well as Progressive Supranuclear Palsy, although it's probably not too common.

The neuro who had diagnosed me with MG in January had noted it: he put his hand around the front of my throat and told me to swallow, and it took me about 30 seconds or so to get the muscles going, and he said something like, "Hmmmm. difficulty initiating swallowing," which made me feel that it was a confirmation of something.

Anyway ... for my own amusement, I have listed and color-coded all my significant symptoms since the beginning, and the only ones so far that are not ALS or FTD related involve vision and loss of balance, which is just beginning. Don't know if the balance will progress to falls, but I am very unsteady in the a.m. Aside from that, it's the same old double-vision while reading bit. And progressively worse blurring.

Dr. Graves from UCLA conferred with my cardiologist, and they agreed that there is no medical reason I cannot participate in the study on the new emotional lability drug, so I have an appt with Graves and someone from the study Friday. And I plan to slip Dr. Graves a note about the double-vision. I realized I had started leaving vision problems off my symptom list because they have been shrugged away so often as not ALS-related.

I also realize that the trouble initiating a swallow only happens with fluids, or when I'm thinking about it, such as when I'm trying to swallow a pill. It does not happen with solid foods, where I can chew and swallow just fine (within reason :)).

Also, when it does happen, and I have a sip of liquid in my mouth and am trying to swallow, the tip of my tongue starts doing a wierd repetitive motion, pushing against my lower lip, and my lips start a chewing motion. It's like the wrong end of my tongue is trying to swallow.

Woke up in the middle of the night last night with my lips and jaw doing that strange chewing/smacking thing, with my tongue darting in and out of my mouth, and I couldn't stop it. That's the fastest my tongue has moved in six months! Which sounds like a petit mal seizure type of thing, but I didn't know you could be aware of those while they're happening ... or remember them later. We'll see if it happens again.

My conclusion is that (as Neuro #5 said at the MG clinic) "there's something else going on here" that is causing both ALS and FTD plus some PSP-type symptoms. I'm thinking some kind of virus (brain flu?), or maybe a tumor? I had an MRI a year and a half ago and it was fine, but maybe it's time for another one.

It's too much of a coincidence that ALS and PSP would both independently start at exactly the same time and there not be a connection.

But maybe this is just another variant of ALS, like FTD. Maybe this, maybe that ...

Have a good holiday,
BethU
 
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