PWC Batteries

[KimT]

I've had my Permobil since 2017. It's been parked in my master closed for most of the time. I got it when I sprained my ankle and couldn't walk. I only needed it for a short time, then my ankle healed. Recently, my knee got weak and the muscle around it is atrophied. Im scheduled for an MRI to see if anything structural shows up or it's just natural progression.

The question I have is the battery. I've taken it out to get around the condo for a few days. The battery shows a full charge but it's over five years old. Is this possible? I'm worried the chair will just stop working and I won't have a way to get back home without leaving the chair behind.

I've done searches and they all say the maximum life of a good quality battery is around three years. Should I buy another battery? I don't plan on going anywhere far from the condo since it's accessible and I can get to the social room, other units, and the pool by ramps. I've never ridden it enough to run the battery down to below 90% and have kept it plugged in all this time.

 

[swalker]

Wheelchair batteries are an interesting topic!

Your wheelchair probably uses two lead acid, gel, deep cycle batteries (4 out of my 5 wheelchairs do). Probably the best brand going is MK and MK are the only lead acid batteries I recommend for power wheelchairs.

Insurance should pay for a new set of batteries (there are usually 2 in a power wheelchair) when the need arises.

I have batteries over 5 years old that are still going strong. However, I am careful to store them fully charged and to periodically maintain them with a good float charger.

The battery gauge on your wheelchair is really just digital display of a voltmeter. The voltage of the battery is loosely tied to the amount of energy the wheelchair can delivery to your wheelchair. But, measuring battery capacity by voltage provides a pretty poor estimate of capacity. I prefer to monitor the miles I have driven since the last full charge. I find this a much better indicator of how much capacity the batteries have remaining.

It will be hard to get the batteries tested in a meaningful way. Doing so requires some specialized equipment and probably most of a day to accomplish. I have a setup that will do this and that setup cost over $500. I don't think it is practical for most people to procure this kind of equipment. I have never run into a DME (Durable Medical Equipment) provider that had this kind of equipment and have never run into a professional wheelchair tech who would understand how to use it.

So, what can you do? If it was my wheelchair, I would fully charge it for at least 15 hours. Then I would take it on a short test ride of perhaps a quarter of a mile. If the battery gauge drops at all, then it is time for a new battery. If it does not, then I would fully charge the wheelchair. This is not when the light goes green, but quit a few hours after that. My Permobil manual says to charge the batteries for 15 hours, which is pretty impractical for someone that uses their wheelchair throughout the day.

After the wheelchair is fully charged again, I would then go on a longer ride. My wheelchairs have a battery gauge that has 10 LEDs. As soon as one of those ten LEDs goes away, I would turn around and head for home. If it takes less than about 5 miles for the first LED to disappear, then I would consider the battery to be at end of life.

When I was under private insurance (United Healthcare), I never had any issues getting them to approve a new set of batteries. Now that I am under Medicare, I can't get Medicare to fund a new set of batteries. That is because my wheelchairs are too "nice". I have 4 wheelchairs that are considered "group 4", which Medicare does not cover.

I have found that a new set of group 24 MK Gel batteries cost about $600 delivered to my door. My friend can install them for me, so this works well for me.

Please feel free to ask follow up questions. I will be glad to help in any way I can.

Steve

 

[KimT]

Steve,
I was hoping you would see my post. Thank you so much for the valuable information. I plan on "testing" the batteries this week. I only have the chair Medicare paid for but I didn't know they would pay for batteries. Actually, it's been five years since my chair arrived and aren't we entitled to a new chair after five years? Not that I would get one but it's good to know that Medicare will pay for another one after five years.
Thanks again.

 

[swalker]

I am far from being an expert on Medicare, but will share what I think I have learned about Medicare and wheelchairs.

If you have a need, Medicare will pay for a wheelchair and associated upkeep (service, tires, batteries, etc.).

If Medicare pays for a wheelchair and your needs change, Medicare will pay for changes to your existing wheelchair or pay get a different wheelchair at any time. While this sounds great on paper, in reality, it seems to be exceptionally difficult to achieve in real life. That is why I and others recommend that folks don't use Medicare to buy a temporary scooter when we all know that soon a rehab wheelchair will be needed.

Medicare will pay for a replacement wheelchair if yours is damaged or stolen.

Medicare will consider getting you a replacement wheelchair after 5 years, but it must be demonstrated that your old wheelchair is worn out or deficient in some way. Apparently it is way easier to have this happen after 5 years than before 5 years of ownership.

Medicare will pay for any wheelchair maintenance, including tires, batteries, motors, and electrical components as well as all associated service charges.

Medicare will typically cover only up to a group 3 wheelchair (such as a Permobil F3). Medicare will, in exceptional cases, fund a group 4 wheelchair, such as a Permobil F5.

Three and a half years ago Medicare approved funding for me for a Permobil F5 VS wheelchair. It was approved, even though it is a group 4 wheelchair, because I had a medical necessity for the standing function (the VS part of the description). Unfortunately, Medicare would not actually cover the standing portion, only upgrade their coverage to the F5. My out of pocket cost was estimated to be $18,000 to $20,000. because the standing functionality is expensive and I would have to pay the entire cost of it. My DME (Nutmotion) required that I sign paperwork saying I would pay the out of pocket portion regardless of how large it would be. There was no cap on my financial liability. Based on this, I declined the wheelchair and bought a standard Permobil F5 used off of craigslist. By the way, it took almost 1 full year to get this approval for an F5.

I will close with a thought I first ran into on a wheelchair forum I participate in. A saying there is that if you need a wheelchair, you need two. Wheelchairs are complex things and occasionally need repair. I have had repairs take up to a year in two cases (those were extreme examples exacerbated by COVID 19, but really did happen). Having a backup wheelchair has been essential for me for those and many other occasions. In fact, I bought my first backup wheelchair when my only wheelchair was in the shop for 3 months!

So, if you can get Medicare to fund a wheelchair now that your original one is 5 years old, I would encourage you to consider going for it.

Steve

 

[beckerde]

I have a Permobil M3 since December 2020. Numotion guy said medicare will replace batteries every year so I should get them even if I don't need them. Early 2022 I inquired about battery replacement and basically the suggestion was dismissed or forgotten. January 2023 Numotion guy puts an order in for new batteries and I am still waiting. My suggestion is ask for everything to make sure you get it in a timely manner. I appreciate all you information Steve.
Don

 

[KimT]

Don,

I called my provider yesterday.

I still have pretty good strength and thought about getting a portable, foldable ultra light wheelchair for when I go places where I might have to walk farther that I'm able. I would pay out of pocket.

I went online last night but couldn't decide. Ideally I'd like to spend under $4,000 for a light weight chair and it would never replace my PWC. I do know Medicare pays for one every five years but mine has never been outside the condo building and only has a few miles on it so I'm confident, after a check up and battery replacement that it will still be very useful. It also has extra things on it like the elevator function and extra padding that Permobil threw in. It's very comfortable.

If anyone has experience with ultra light foldable chairs that can fold up and put in the back of an SUV, I'd like to hear your opinions and reviews.

 

[KimT]

I ended up putting in a service order for my chair that includes new batteries. Medicare will pay for the service and the batteries. I also decided to get a portable chair so I can go to state parks in Florida and not rely on using a rollator.
It's flat here in Florida so I wasn't concerned about much except the chair is very light (Matrix) and has a 24 inch turning radius. I'll use it when my leg hurts to get around the condo building.

Steve, I do agree that if you need one wheelchair, you need two. This one will do for now. I can still walk and get around the house unassisted.

I'm seeing an ortho for my knee issues. It might be something that PT can work on. For now, I'm delighted that this light weight chair will be delivered in less than a week.

 

[KimT]

Well, my provider didn't call me back. I called again today and talked to service. He said I needed an Rx from my doctor saying "service wheelchair." I asked him what he thought the lead time would be and he said at least a month, probably two.

It's hard for me to believe something as simple as changing the batteries would take so long.

I looked at some Youtube videos on changing PWC batteries and it doesn't look like rocket science. We have four maintenance men at the condo who work on equipment all day.

I'm wondering if I should just order the batteries myself and have maintenance install them. I can understand a long wait for getting a new chair but not for routine maintenance that, I'm sure, will only amount to new batteries.

 

[KimT]

Permobil Wheelchair Speed?

So I got my wheelchair outside for the first time ever!! I thought my wheelchair was supposed to be speedy? 3mph is my top speed? But I pressed a button or something tonight and not it will only go a top speed of 1.5 mph. What did I do and how can I fix it? I took it out tonight and I wondered...

www.alsforums.com

This thread helped me a great deal. I didn't need the chair for some time and I forgot how to put it into regular mode. It's in the manual. Just putting it here because it might help others.
I'm still waiting for the new batteries. I called Ability Medical Supply and they made up some excuses that they were looking for batteries that Medicare will cover. I told them I'd pay the difference or just pay for the batteries and try to get reimbursed. Then they said they were waiting for a doctor's rx to service the chair. I emailed it to them. I finally got a return email that said they were going to order the batteries.
At least I got my chair going nearly 7mph. That'll keep me safer in the parking garage. My little chair goes 5mph but the slope of the garage going to higher floors slows it down a bit.
So far, I've really enjoyed the little chair. It fits in every room and through smaller doors in the common area of the condo. It gets me to the pool and back. I can remove the softer seat and arm pads so it doesn't get wet from my bathing suit. Now if we'd just have some decent weather, I might be able to get back in the pool.

Steve, as always, thank you for all the good advice.