Neurontin and Different Types of PLS Pain?

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IhavePLS

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Apr 17, 2011
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279
Reason
DX UMND/PLS
Diagnosis
12/2010
Country
US
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Pennsylvania
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SW
Hello again to all,

I am so very sorry for asking another question, but as a neophyte (who thought he knew quite a bit about PLS), I am so relieved to find others who have essentially shared my experience - and who understand the discomfort, pain, fatigue, and weakness that are all associated with this evil disease. Therefore:

I thought I might ask here: Yesterday, my neuro prescribed Neurontin for my pain - saying that he didn't feel (from my description of symptoms) that my pain was rooted in spasticity. What other kind of pain, then, could it be? Or is that he doesn't really know? Some kind of neuropathic pain? Is such pain common with PLS? Or might it be indicative of some other co-morbid disorder?

Do you all have get different types of pain - nerve pain and spastic (cramping) pain? I believe that I do have both...last night, my wrists, hands, and fingers were on fire. I'm not a diabetic (I was recently tested - all of my labs are fine). But very painful!

Thanks all!

Mike
 
hi mike,i have spasms like pain which i describe in my legs as something trying to quash it length ways into a ball............stretching helps for the few seconds you can hold your leg in a stretch.
i do have general aching muscle pain especially in my thigh muscles which i put down to the muscles being weak and using them.
then theres the lower back and hip pain many of us get,probably from posture and gait but partly secondary weakness/pain from spasms.
i am in pain head to foot 24/7 for nearly 11yrs now..............i just try not to think about it and focus on other things.........pain is always worse if you dwell on it.
 
In an informal study of the PLS mailing list, 50% of PLSers reported high levels of pain, and the other half no pain at all associated with their PLS. Interestingly, the half that had significan pain were almost the exact same people that doesn't respond well to physical therapy. There were no middle ground answers, which surprised me. I've come to believe that what we're diagnosing as PLS will end up being split into at least three different disorders: Hereditary Spastic Quadriplegia (people like me and Laurel who have PLS but can pass HSP), whatever the pain one ends up called, and pure PLS (no pain).

There are people with PLS and neuropathic pain. I use Tramadol, but neurontin works better for others. It's not a classic PLS symptom, though.
 
I have had chronic pain for years along side of these symptoms of PLS. At first the docs thought it was fibromyalgia, and thus that stuck for years. I was never able to get the pain under control using the methods that are the norm for fibromyalgia. Then they started saying it was perifial neuropathy. Yet that does not show evidence in EMGs and NCVs. So we are back to square one in reguards the exact cause of the type of pain that is continual, achy that gets worse when a muscle is pushed on or stressed through walking or use of everyday life. It is not necessarily related to my weakness because even though the pain came first it is recoverable somewhat with rest and mild massaging and medication occasionally. But the weakness came unexpectedly in one leg first and spread from there and unlike the pain it did not recover but has either remainded the same or had bouts of progression. The pain was body wide.

In regards to pain, I have learned that living at a 0 - 2 on a pain scale of 1 - 10 (10 being excusiating to put you in shock), is just not going to be in my life. I find that I can live at 6-7 without meds and still maintain a pleasant composure. If I creap up to a 7 I take ibuprophen, if I get to an 8 I take some form of a narcotic, 9 is a call to the doc for a toradol shot, if a 10 is achieved I am in the ER. I haven't had a 10 in about 6 years, since I have figured this out.

My pains are different too. I get sharp pain when I cramp. I get a tightness that exasterbates the achiness when I am overly spastic. I get the joint and muscle pain during pressure changes (including in airplane which will throw me up into an 8-9 if I do not premedicate before a flight, including for spaticity). I wake up each morning (and at night frequently) with screaming back pain not caused from mattresses, I have tried every kind of mattress out there...all with the same results.) The back pain might be aggrivated by what we found on the latest findings on my spinal mri that shows a few bulging discs (not effecting the spinal cord), mild scyliosis and some mild arthritis (also not effecting the spinal cord), along with the muscle cramps I get in the back since my back seems to be getting weaker.

All this pain gets complicated with the pains I get from tendons that rip when I try to do ordinary things that I cannot due because of weakness. Such as me really trying to open a jar and ripping all the tendons in my thumb, which in turn put me in a cast for 4 weeks and now I have to wear thumb braces because both my thumbs are out of place. The hand surgeon says I need surgery to take them in place. I will not be doing that anytime soon.

So like Beky states, the pain might be related to PLS, but an underlining condition of something else. Like fibromyalgia, neuropathy, arthritis...ect. I have been on neurontin for several years off and on. I am currently off it 2+ years now. It is a drug that is supposed to be an anti-seizure med, but has been used to treat anything from perifial neuropathy to fibromyalgia. I found once I got over the side effects of daytime sleepiness and weight gain, they actually worked for a while, but then the pain got worse again, so they upped the med. This is typical for this drug. I eventually would reach the max dose and take it for a while. Then when I built tollerance to that I would have to wean myself off it. Believe when I say this, comming off neurontin is a slow process and you do go through the DTs! I felt like I was coming out of my skin. Like the feeling of bugs was crawling on me that were not there and like I had a 3rd degree burn all over my skin to the point where even my own cloths hurt my skin. But this too passes (except for the bugs crawly thing, I still get that occasionally but not near as bad when coming off neurontin). I think both of my cycles of doing this were about a 5 year and then a 2 year before I would have to go off the med. This is just my experience and does not reflect anyone else. I have known people who were on half the dosage that I was on for 6 months before they decided to go off it and they did not have the extreme effects I did other than increased feeling like a sunburn on their skin.

So sometimes pain needs to be assessed to the point that if its chronic, you need to set the parameter you can tolerate without being unpleasant. A state of mind per se. Pain free is no longer in my vocabulary and since I have grasped this point for me I am happier. Because, even though pain is not fun, it is a fact of life for me. Pain meds were created to treat temperary pain. Not for long term pain. Thus our bodies get use to them and then they do not work anymore unless we take doses that will harm us. That is why I can go up to two weeks without ibuprophen or narcotics but have a pain level of 6-7. That is also why I can fracture a bone and not go to have it looked at for months. Like when I broke my hip and walked around on it 6 months before they discovered it.
 
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I do not experience pain related to my PLS/ALS. Only pain is when I overdo or if I don't get my knee bent in time during a leg spasm...this then can easily become a charlie horse in my calf.

I will say that I have described the sensation of a leg spasm as similar to the feeling of steping on or falling in a nail...not the pain, just the embedded object.
 
Thank you all for your responses.

Beky, I find the informal study results to be very interesting. Thanks for providing!

AKMom, I hope you are doing well after your biopsy (as well as can be). Thanks for the info on Neurontin....I will be very careful relative to dosing -- that LAST thing I need are feelings of DTs - :eek:(!)...I do agree that pain can vary - both in kind and intensity. My pain is complicated by the "restlessness" and "creepy crawly" feelings of restless arms syndrome (or RAS - I did say elsewhere that I have had occasional - and severe - RLS as well, although not recently - thank goodness).

I (greatly) appreciate all your advisement. It's nice to "hang out" around here. It really is. THANKS so much to you all! Hopefully, I can also be a source of information to you as well. I used to do health care research - mainly the intersect of behavioral health with chronic health conditions - such as CHF, COPD, diabetes, MS (!), chronic pain (!), etc). I also used such findings in the development of health and wellness programs. And so I've seen the other side of it as well -- harder to be as objective when you are the PATIENT! :smile:, right?

Well wishes to you all,

Mike
 
Mike, you said it. I am a nurse specializing in MS, married to a neurologist. I HATE being on the other side. I go to meetings with neurologists and feel their eyes burning into me as they try and work out what I have, I hate it so much and wish the ground would just swallow me up. Recently went to teach an ms patient to inject her dmt, and had terrible trouble getting into her house up the stairs. When I had spent over an hour with her I had seized up! Very embarrassing indeed :)
 
Thank you for your response, Alyoop. So sorry for your troubles as well! Wow! A specialist - married to a neurologist - and you are STILL uncomfortable with the process. It makes me feel less paranoid when I beg my neuro to focus in on my symptoms. :razz:

Mike
 
Aly, I understand that you do not have a diagnosis, but what does your spouse (who is a neurologist) think?
 
That is the $10,000 question. He was happy with the PLS doagnosis, but negative in that it often in his experience turns into ALS. Recently he has been doing research and as I do have an abnormal predisposition to nerve palsies, hes found a rare genetic type of HNPP that can have a UMN focus with a normal EMG. My first EMG found reinervation everywhere it looked, but 2 subsequant EMG have not. he said that is utterly inpossible, reinnervation does not go away. True. He is a firm believer that EMGs are only as good as the operator and things are easily missed (cant say that too loud as it would cause a right royal stir).
I really do not give a dam anymore, been through rigourous testing, hip weakness continues to worsen. Lots of excersise has improved my ability to walk on the flat, but helps in no way with my inability to go up even the tiniest gradient.
At the end of the day, I will not be drawn into discussions of the "latest possible diagnosis". I just smile and ignore it :)
Aly
 
Hello

Please--whatever you do--read up a LOT on Neurontin before you take it. I was on a huge dosage for ages due to my pain issues. 3800mgs per day.

It literally killed my short-term memory. I was getting lost going to the freaking grocery store. I swelled up everywhere--especially my legs. Horrid, horrid drug.

Nerve pain is treated with things like cymbalta, lyrica, topamax and neurontin.

For me personally--topamax had the least side-effects and worked best for nerve pain in me.

But, I'm in pain 24/7. Motrin doesn't touch it--and I took it often enough trying that I fried my kidneys with it.

My advice to anyone with constant pain issues is to find a good pain management doctor. I now take 30mg er morphine 2x a day and 15mg ir morphine 3x per day. I also have Valium for the severe muscle cramps and spasms I have.

I am surprised they didn't try Lyrica first. Or Cymbalta.

I'm not sure they know why--but epilepsy meds seem to help many with nerve pain. Unfortunately, narcotics don't help nerve pain very much. Also, be aware that Neurontin can make you very, very tired. Be careful driving if you're taking it.
 
Thank you very much, notme! I have started Neurontin (was on it years ago), and I don't seem to have (yet anyway) any lethargy from it. But will certainly keep close tabs on this - per your advisement - because I am overall very sensitive to medications. Thank you again. And I do hope YOU begin to feel well!

Best wishes,

Mike
 
Glad you have no issues with it, Mike. I adjusted to the 'tired' problems with it pretty quickly--but the memory things I just could not tolerate. I still feel it is what caused my ongoing memory issues.
 
i have cut down on the meds over the past few years but my cognitive dysfunction has slowly increased............it does not seem to be due to meds which ofton happens.
it may be that ftd is setting in...........i have developed an occassional stutter which can occur in ftd.
my youth,my body and now my mind........what else is there to go?
 
olly I read that FTD only occurred in less than 10% of ALS and that it usually started with lack of empathy and in dealing with others, and severe speech problems. That's not true? Were you ever on Neurontin by chance?

I'm absolutely positive it is what has messed up my brain so badly. I used to be able to write a book for intance, in less than a month. Now i can't remember what I wrote and spend more time re-reading than actually writing.

My brain is going--I now it--and I'm only 50--too young for brain issues, I'd think.

Wow, I hadn't read much on PLS--but it's sounding more and more like me.

As to PT and Pain--Any type of PT increases my pain ten-fold--and makes me much much worse. When I was teaching, I was injured breaking up a fight between students. I had to do PT and all to keep my workers' comp. I was off work for 6 months--the PT just made me weaker and the pain worse.

Now I'm wondering if the entire issue wasn't related to the spasms I live with constantly being aggravated by being shoved into a wall by the kids.

Every PT and Massage therapist I've ever seen has commented on the severe spasms in my back, hips and legs when I go. And that's been the case for years.

I've been looking seriously at ALS--as the doc said--but, he didn't know about my years of spasms and pain--perhaps PLS fits me more
 
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