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Mike, what I should have pointed out (but did not) in my earlier post:

The doctor who advised us is on staff at the hospital I mentioned;
The hospital mentioned is run by the Sisters of St. Joseph;
The "comfort care" is the term used by our doctor for Hospice (or compassionate) care provided in the hospital;
The doctor told us to call him and he would coordinate with the in-hospital hospice team.

You are absolutely correct that we CALS bear the responsibility for our loved ones as their illnesses progress. I fight tooth and nail (and I know others do) to help. But not all of us are equipped to be on-scene commanders during a crisis, facing decisions for which we are not trained, demanding skills or judgment that we cannot provide.

I would like to know that I can sit bedside and press a buzzer when we need help and that a human being will appear to help us.
It really broke my heart to read Chriss' narrative. Nobody should have to go through that.

That said, people like you and Annie's Phil (and others) may be uniquely qualified to perform calmly and courageously in a home setting. There is a right thing for each of us.

VL
 
Hi Mike and VL,

I can see what you are both saying. In our case though we were sort of indirectly told that it was not good to get the ambulance, that it would be invasive etc and the more peaceful pathway was palliative. Also my husband did not want to die in hospital but at home so I wanted to support him in that. I was also concerned that if we went to hospital it would be stressful as we would have been taken to a major metropolitan hospital and they were not likely to have a clue about how to manage. There are only a few hundred people in our state who have the disease and there is a great lack of knowledge. We also had some separate agency care but we must have had at least 50 carers through the house. Another story for another time.

My husband also had not left the house since Feb 2010 and was a large man so the average stretcher would not have been enough and would have had to go in a special ambulance.

In terms of hospice (palliative ) care what Mike said is true. Some were what I call the tea and sympathy nurses, like to sit and have a chat and be listeners but not actually do anything. Some did not have the skills and were lost and there was only about 2 that really were helpful. What I think is that they resented that we were on the program so long as the average length of stay for palliative is only 7 weeks and they have a criteria of last six months. We were with them for two years. They had a 22 page care plan that no one could follow. Then 90 percent of their clients are cancer sufferers and all their protocols and knowledge is based around that. So if he had had cancer I am sure they would have been wonderful. They had a very narrow focus of care for us.

What I think was bad was on the front sheet in the shared client record was the statement we provide a 24 hours support service 7 days a week. The nurse practitioner also said to us earlier in the year don't worry when the time comes we will be there for you. They wouldn't say what they would do just don't worry. It was patronising to the max. Mostly they would only turn up once a fortnight until the last few weeks when we got the syringe driver and then they either came daily or every 2 days to fill up the syringe and then off they went. So I had this false expectation that not calling the ambulance would be better and that even if they were not physically here I could at least talk with the nurses to get support-at least 24 hours 7 days a week. However when I did need them and it was right within business hours, they were doing other things and at the time and I could not argue with the receptionist. I mean I said he is having trouble breathing, did I have to draw her a diagram. I am not going to say I think he is dying in front of him and upset him, I would hope they understand. I have given my feedback to the manager of the service.
 
Chriss,
I'm so sorry you had a negative experience with Hospice. I would have expected that having such a long term relationship with your husband that they would have done more to educate the staff about ALS and how best to care for him.

We used our local non-profit Hospice for care during the last few months of my Mother's life (Parkinson's and CLL) The care we received was excellent. Our primary nurse was outstanding. After a fall and a severe and rapid decline from 2 ER visits (to check for FX) Mom did go to their Inpatient Facility for the final few days of her life. The difference in her overall appearance after about 20 minutes in the facility once she arrived from an ER about 2 hours away was dramatic. She was made comfortable and kept that way for the next 3 days and nights. Our primary nurse had even helped coordinate getting Mom "home" while on her afternoon off. We were able to function as family to Mom once again instead of 24/7 caregivers.

A friend whose Mother recently passed in TX also used Hospice and had excellent service. Their team was readily available for advice by phone or text. The last few days of her care were provided by the Crises Team with 24 hour in-home attendance.

I'm sad that there's such a wide variety in the level of care that folks are receiving from Hospice. It is a much under utilized benefit.
Most people postpone acquiring their services until the last minute and are not able to realize all the support that is available.

I hope others will research their local options for palliative care and at least give it a try.
Information on palliative care in the US can be found at Hospicefoundation.org
 
I'm very sorry to hear about your experience Chriss, but thanks for sharing, I think that only helps everyone involved. Thanks to you too Mike. No doubt, we ultimately take responsibility for ourselves and our loved ones one way or another, be it by our own hand directly or by delegation of authority. Reading about how you (Mike) handled things, does nothing but give me more confidence in how my own ending will play out. My husband seems a very similar sort of man and I have no fear just confidence as long as decisions are physically in his hands. My guess is you have several bushel baskets sitting around your house too.
 
Thank you so very much for posting all of your responses! This was a question just yesterday that my husband was worried/thinking about and wanted to know what the end would be like knowing that yes, everyone is diffferent, but expressing that there has to be some similar, general expereinces to expect.
In the past I have wondered and really didn't get satisfaction about this question, except for my friend Cervus! Thank you Cervus! Telling me how it was helped me so much and back then when you posted, I relayed this to my husband and it gave comfort.
It all has come back as he has progressed and well, is alone too much when I am at work. He has too much time to think!
The stories posted, telling in detail how it is...could be... have been helpful. I have read some of the details to him helping to satisfy his worry, answering the questions he has.
I read your recent post on this thread Curvus, to my husband as well as others posted and your words helped!
I think sometimes getting just the usual "everyone is different" doesn't satisfy the need to "know"..."tell me how it is/was"... I thank you all!
 
Cervus, Please see the posting I made to this thread. You have helped me so much! God Bless!
 
VL, I will not tell you that you are wrong in your assessment of the treatment you want for your spouse at the end. But I will tell you, you are new to caregiving (judging on your join date but I may be wrong) so as you care for your husband, you will gain knowledge and confidence in your decisions. I think you will find that YOU WILL be the smartest one in the room, the most knowledgeable the most capable and the most caring and you will take charge. It is unbelievable what we can do for the ones we love in a crisis.

I hope you don't think I am criticizing you--I just think you will find the strength you may not know you have.
 
Chriss,
I'm so sorry you had a negative experience with Hospice. I would have expected that having such a long term relationship with your husband that they would have done more to educate the staff about ALS and how best to care for him.

We used our local non-profit Hospice for care during the last few months of my Mother's life (Parkinson's and CLL) The care we received was excellent. Our primary nurse was outstanding. After a fall and a severe and rapid decline from 2 ER visits (to check for FX) Mom did go to their Inpatient Facility for the final few days of her life. The difference in her overall appearance after about 20 minutes in the facility once she arrived from an ER about 2 hours away was dramatic. She was made comfortable and kept that way for the next 3 days and nights. Our primary nurse had even helped coordinate getting Mom "home" while on her afternoon off. We were able to function as family to Mom once again instead of 24/7 caregivers.

A friend whose Mother recently passed in TX also used Hospice and had excellent service. Their team was readily available for advice by phone or text. The last few days of her care were provided by the Crises Team with 24 hour in-home attendance.

I'm sad that there's such a wide variety in the level of care that folks are receiving from Hospice. It is a much under utilized benefit.
Most people postpone acquiring their services until the last minute and are not able to realize all the support that is available.

I hope others will research their local options for palliative care and at least give it a try.
Information on palliative care in the US can be found at Hospicefoundation.org

I heartily agree with Deb about getting hospice involved early. Annie initiated her hospice care in mid-April, she died Dec 9. Getting the relationship with hospice early gives you opportunity to get to know the individuals and get any unacceptable issues corrected before they become critical. There were a number of things that were unacceptable when Annie first started. I made a trip to the hospice headquarters and politely, but unambiguously, conveyed the issues which I thought needed correcting. Things changed for the better the very next week. The level of care that Annie began receiving went up dramatically. She had several different aides, one was especially good and rapidly developed a loving relationship with Annie. We specifically requested that she be Annie's main aide, and hospice gladly accommodated her request. She also had a couple of different main nurses along with some on-call ones during odd hours. The pairing up of Annie with her last nurse was a mutual desire on both their parts. Like with her aide, Annie and the nurse really hit it off and spent much time together beyond what was strictly necessary for the medical care. Actually, all of the hospice staff wanted to have Annie because she always so pleasant and made them feel better. Annie's hospice folks really loved her and that counted for a lot - she was more than a job for them. Her nurse and aide actually came to her memorial service.

If initiating hospice is delayed too long, then you're sort of stuck with what you get because there's no time to get things sorted out.

And I certainly understand the desire for spouses or other close caregivers to want the professionals to take care of the medical care since they've already got the emotional burden as well as daily caregiving duties to attend to. But good caregiving decisions, and availability, on the part of the professionals isn't something one can depend upon.

After the patient dies, it is common for the survivors to recount in their minds all of the things they wish they had done differently - "If only I had known this, I would have done that." or, "I didn't think that was right, but I didn't want to say anything. Now I wish I had questioned this" or "insisted on that." There will be guilt and regrets no matter how well you try to take care of your loved one. So I'm just trying to caution caregivers that passivity can exasperate the inevitable future feelings of guilt - my suggestion is to err on the side of saying too much rather than too little to the people getting paid to manage the palliative care.

Our local hospice also had nil experience with ALS. Most of their patients were also cancer patients. Annie knew a lot more about ALS than most doctors, excluding neurologists. The reason was that she read extensively about it. There was much information we got from the hospice staff that was just plain wrong - and you don't have a chance of convincing them that they're wrong. That's when, armed with reliable medical information, one just has to stand their ground and insist on what your research indicates is the best course in keeping with your goals. Not every patient has the same goals - and that needs to be respected. Some want to live as long as possible, others want to go as soon as possible.

What Mike said about ambulances and hospitals is true. In fact, in our state, if you call 911 the ambulance crew must apply life-saving interventions unless you have a properly executed DNR order. The logic is, why does one call 911 if you don't want them to try to save a life as an emergency. I understand that one might just want palliative care in an extreme situation, but that's not their raison d'etra. And doctors and nurses are trained and conditioned to save life. The movie "Wit" gives some insight into that. "Wit" was one of Annie's favorite movies and recommended it to anyone facing a terminal illness.

I think I've rambled enough.
 
Hi, Barbie:

Thanks for your comments. My husband had symptoms dating back to 2008. I have been his sole caregiver for many months.

I totally understand my limitations--and my strengths. Rest assured, I do not for a moment believe you are being critical. When my husband and I first visited an ALS Clinic, we received the impression that his situation was all downhill from there. I was determined that it would not be. And it has not been.

But in all truth, I do not choose to govern the circumstances of my husband's death by phone instruction. I have made my peace with his illness and the eventual termination of his life. In our last days together, I do not choose panic over peace. We will place ourselves in the presence of medical personnel in a hospice situation when, and only when, his life is ending. In the meantime, if we need routine healthcare, we will arrange for that assistance.

On The Soapbox: It serves all of us well to realize that for-profit hospice organizations have serious limitations.

VL
 
Thanks, KissJ. I'm so glad to have been of some help to you. You are too gracious!

It's wrong that so many people are experiencing ALS with really no hope for a cure in our time. I think in the end, we, as caregivers and PALS are our best advocate. I had similar experiences with nurses through Home Care and really, nobody had ANY experience with ALS and it also seemed, with death. On the day Bob died, a home care nurse visited in the morning. Bob was sleeping with that rattle noise and had been for 5 days. She wrote down the names of all his meds, doses, etc., asked about his bowel movements (we'd had some concerns) and I just said really? That's what you're concerned about right now? Is it lack of training, fear, or what? They have empathy but really, in the end, my girls and I took care of Bob the best way we knew and it was, I know, better than what any hospital could have done for us. We've been told that had Bob ended up in the hospital (that was not an option for us), he would have been drugged with morphine to keep him "comfortable". Like I've mentioned before, I have a new found respect for morphine, but it should be used in levels appropriate for each patient. And for PALS and CALS choosing to be at home, don't be afraid to use it. It seems that there is some commonality about how PALS die. And yes, I think we should write our stories to share with medical personnel. They don't know everything. They know (if they're associated with ALS) that certain things will happen (paralysis of limbs, inability to talk, inability to eat and ultimately to breathe. Some people experience all of the above - some don't. But doctors don't know everything. I really urge and encourage everybody here, on this forum, to read, read, read, educate themselves and stay a step or more ahead of disease progression. AND be your own advocate at all levels and stages of progression. I admire everybody's courage and strength. Bob handled this disease (and two types of cancer before this) with strength and dignity that I know I wouldn't have had. Love to you all. And I love you and miss you Bob.
 
Hi VL so you "do not choose to govern the circumstances of my husband's death by phone instruction and ....do not choose panic over peace".

Well I did not know my husband's death was actually to be that day. We had a whole year of close calls or more really. I get your message and it is a terrible thing to be insinuating I chose death by phone instruction and panic over peace. It was his choice to stay at home and I respect that choice and was willing to support him. There is not for some people the ability to have help available at a moments notice and I was managing the best I could and think it is not too much to expect some help over the phone but that is certainly not death by phone instruction-really who do you think you are.

That's it for me contributing to this forum. I thought it was about opening up and sharing to people who had asked and wanted to know. Don't need this
 
Chriss: I am so sorry you misconstrued my post. It was strictly about failure of hospice organizations (for many) to provide guidance/help when it is most needed. I was simply reiterating our intention to forego in-home hospice in favor of in-patient hospice when appropriate.

Please forgive me for treading on your raw emotions.

You can be a most helpful contributor on this forum. I hope you will reconsider.

VL
 
The old Marine Corps saying about the civilian world: There's no Commandant out there! As a PAL, I would fully expect my husband to take command level. Good news is that he was raised in New York, so, culturally, this is not tough. But I think it can be really hard for some folks, and they have my sympathy. Doing something counter to how you were taught can be the hardest and bravest thing to do.
 
Chriss,

Please don't think anyone was judging you--quite the opposite. you had a teribble experience that was not your fault and it opened up a discussion--that is all. I think from all the posts that I read that everyone is very sympathetic to you--you did all you could and you did a great job! I think VL was only expressing her opionion about her own situation--not a reflection of yours.

YOu are hurting as you have every right to be and please don't go away thinking anyone is judging you. we are all just scared and wonder how it will be for us when we reach that point.

YOu are loved here!
 
Hi Rangerbob,

I'm so sorry for what you're going through.

I'd say take the morphine. It really helped my PALS. I could see the difference in his breathing if he didn't have it. He was on bipap pretty much 24/7. I will say that it does cause constipation which we weren't told initially and so he was a bit uncomfortable for a time until we figured out what was wrong.
 
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