More Bad News. :((((((

[jayemcee]

Boy you guys just broke the record for the longest and wordiest post ever. I have no idea which is right but Saubier makes a good point with Dr. Zinman's study. He recommended to me a while back to get off Lipitor. I have no idea if it will help at this late stage but it can't hurt.
AL.

you aint seen nuthin' yet.:mrgreen:

also Jeff

 

[jayemcee]

Zen Archer and jayemcee:

Actually, neither of you are necessarily in disagreement about the issue of statin use and ALS. ZenArcher is correct in that the observed correlations do not necessarily imply causation. But then, this is not what jayemcee is claiming. Rather, he believes it wise that further research needs to be conducted to establish a stronger connection. Ideally, one conducts experiments under controlled conditions to answer the causality question more definitively, but such an experiment would be unethical in human populations. Yet, statisticians have some fairly powerful correlational techniques that could get us close to a causal connection between statins and ALS (if the relationship exists).

Yes, you are correct, vmd. Ethical approval is very unlikely to be granted for further research because one should not be making making any patient's position worse to prove a point. My issue with statistics is that while remaining true to mathematical and statistical principles, it bears little relationship to life. The dead, who were killed by a clinical trial, that discounted them as clinically insignificant, is how we first got to this point; vis-à-vis statins. I don't believe that more than 5% of the medical profession, have a sufficient grasp of statistical analysis to enable clinicians to understand that which they write about so glibly.

Kind regards
also Jeff

 

[Clbrink]

Jeff,

Again, let me state that I agree, this should be investigated.

But I believe you are to personally involved to be able to collect such information in a non-biased manner. It has become more than that for you. You have developed a "passion" to prove your point. I hope you are wrong, ALS is as my husband says "his worse nightmare", that is the best way to describe it...

I quickly glanced at the signatures on your petition, I see some people signed for their parents... and two siblings put ALS, now is that a count of 2? I believe that would count as 1.

That is just a quick review, as I am limited on time being a CALS, and I am not in the medical profession, nor do I remember much of my Statistics class (back in the Stone Age as my kids say). I am just a regular person seeing some big holes...


300----------------Oakville ON Canada Dec 09, 2007
299----------------Oakville ON Canada Dec 09, 2007

I am by trade a designer, and have learnt over the years to take criticism, please take the information that Jeff and I are giving you, and make your point stronger, instead of spending your time fighting back here.

Tina

 

[jayemcee]

Jeff,

Again, let me state that I agree, this should be investigated.

But I believe you are to personally involved to be able to collect such information in a non-biased manner. It has become more than that for you. You have developed a "passion" to prove your point. I hope you are wrong, ALS is as my husband says "his worse nightmare", that is the best way to describe it...

I quickly glanced at the signatures on your petition, I see some people signed for their parents... and two siblings put ALS, now is that a count of 2? I believe that would count as 1.

That is just a quick review, as I am limited on time being a CALS, and I am not in the medical profession, nor do I remember much of my Statistics class (back in the Stone Age as my kids say). I am just a regular person seeing some big holes...


300----------------Oakville ON Canada Dec 09, 2007
299----------------Oakville ON Canada Dec 09, 2007

I am by trade a designer, and have learnt over the years to take criticism, please take the information that Jeff and I are giving you, and make your point stronger, instead of spending your time fighting back here.

Tina

Thanks for your response, Tina. I only counted the two signatures you have indicated as a single signature because it is only one case. As for "fighting back here" I am not engaged in any such thing. Clarifying points that may not be clear is all that I am engaged in and I see no reason not to.

Some people on this forum are taking statins still. I believe that it is right to give them enough information with which they can make informed choices about their own health care needs. I am not trying to legislate for others here. I am passionate about preventing harm to others. Ignorance is a difficult state to move from and I am bound to advocate for those that cannot advocate effectively for themselves, with respect to issues concerning their health, and that is all I am doing with this issue.

Kind regards,
also Jeff

 

[ZenArcher]

Al, I think we're having as much fun playing point counter-point as anything else :-D

A well natured intelligent debate is healthy for the mind. I have felt no malice at any point to Jeff just had fun arguing. I don't disagree with the points made in the arguments only the weight given to the numbers and the assumption of cause. I respect both the cause and the dedication and applaud the efforts. Now if only we can get him to sign up on the ALS advocacy page <wink, wink, nudge, nudge> :-D

http://capwiz.com/alsa/home/

Just in case :mrgreen:

 

[Al]

No problem but the Readers Digest Condensed version wouldn't hurt once in a while. My scrolling finger is getting overworked. LOL.
AL.

 

[jayemcee]

Al, I think we're having as much fun playing point counter-point as anything else :-D

A well natured intelligent debate is healthy for the mind. I have felt no malice at any point to Jeff just had fun arguing. I don't disagree with the points made in the arguments only the weight given to the numbers and the assumption of cause. I respect both the cause and the dedication and applaud the efforts. Now if only we can get him to sign up on the ALS advocacy page <wink, wink, nudge, nudge> :-D

http://capwiz.com/alsa/home/

Just in case :mrgreen:

Yes, Jeff, Agreed! Have just tried to signup to the advocacy program(me) and was dismayed to find that I have to be a US resident to do so. No international branch? For shame.

also Jeff :mrgreen:

 

[jayemcee]

No problem but the Readers Digest Condensed version wouldn't hurt once in a while. My scrolling finger is getting overworked. LOL.
AL.

Al, that was the Readers Digest Condensed version. They are having a competition to win $1 million. Just contribute to a condensed forum discussion to win... besides having to pay for the lifetime subscription to Readers Digest by way of the entry fee. :mrgreen:

also Jeff

 

[Thumbs Up]

Lipitor

I have stopped taking my Lipitor for a week now and going to the dr on Dec 27th to speack with him about this. I will be referring my dr to www.peoplespharmacy.com and have also referred my sisters dr to this website.

Thanks

 

[patricia1]

This thread is somewhat distrubing People shold not stop their statins until they consult with their MD As a nurse I find that people that stop their meds run into big problems >We do not know the extent of the problems people are having and why they are takng statins Having a stroke and or heart disease on top of MND would be horrible. That being said, I stopped my Statin after consulting my MD, He is not happy and I will take full responsibilty for my actions If I found no change I will continue my statins, becase I am possitive my ALS was from a Tetnus shot,and if you read the inclosure on a bottle of Tetnus there is prove of it causing MND I just want to see if it is aggrevating the disease so thats why I am stopping
So please consult with your MD The people o the forum have wonderful information but they are not doctors Thank you and Merry Christmas, Pat

 

[jayemcee]

This thread is somewhat distrubing

Dear Patricia,
I agree with you that this thread is somewhat disturbing. It should never have been necessary, in my view. it became necessary when the pharmaceutical industry produced 'facts' that they will not allow the medical profession to verify. That is that statins are good for you and that low cholesterol is good for you. Both are clearly untrue and both are protected by the pharmaceutical company's own research, that never has to be made public because it constitutes a 'trade secret' so ethics becomes subordinate to profits and the force of law protects the pharmaceutical industry's trade secrets rather than the public.

People shold not stop their statins until they consult with their MD

I cannot support the view that encourages people to continue taking poisonous substances. Our MD's have shown themselves to be woefully ill-educated in this matter and that highly regarded publication 'The New England Journal of Medicine' had recently published the results of a survey they carried out among clinicians. It seems that 94% of all respondents admitted to having a relationship with the pharmaceutical companies. In the face of that staggering piece of information, how many MD's, would you think, are going to approve of the patient stopping their medication?

As a nurse I find that people that stop their meds run into big problems

As a human being, I find that people who never question and always accept the word of their clinician, run into big problems. there are more than enough people who have been damaged by statins to justify exercising extreme caution... which should extend to a point blank refusal to put noxious substances in one's body without checking what they are actually doing to the body.

While I think it is a good idea that we are all cautious about acting on advice from people who do not know us and we do not know if they have any clinical acumen, it is not the case that 'all doctors are good and everyone else is bad'. the medical profession have shown themselves to be especially tardy (with regards to statins which have been available for almost two decades) in telling the public that there may be a problem with the concepts. All research papers point to a lower cholesterol preceding depression, suicide, muscle problems, neurological problems and worse.

The internet has uncovered much information that would have remain hidden and it is a proper use of the internet to warn one's fellow humans, when one knows that they ware walking into danger. Currently, very few clinicians are warning their patients of the danger so I am one of the people that are adding to their previously exclusive rights, to inform the patients about anything they think may be relevant to the patient.

We do not know the extent of the problems people are having and why they are takng statins Having a stroke and or heart disease on top of MND would be horrible.

Despite me agreeing with you that we know nothing of the personal medical Hx of people that are writing here, it behoves us to state categorically that stains are a class of drugs so deeply toxic, that there can be no case for their prescription.

If you want chapter on verse on the technical details, please PM me and I will send you more than a boatload of technical references. For now, suffice it to say that statins destroy cellular life in a fundamental manner, that guarantees that recovery from just the side effects of statins will be difficult. Overlay statin toxicity with other conditions and you will readily see how the additional burden will prove to be too much for the organism.

That being said, I stopped my Statin after consulting my MD, He is not happy and I will take full responsibilty for my actions If I found no change I will continue my statins, becase I am possitive my ALS was from a Tetnus shot,and if you read the inclosure on a bottle of Tetnus there is prove of it causing MND I just want to see if it is aggrevating the disease so thats why I am stopping So please consult with your MD The people o the forum have wonderful information but they are not doctors Thank you and Merry Christmas, Pat

I am truly glad that you have stopped your statin medication, Patricia. There is not a single learned article in all of the medical literature that shows support for the use of statins in women. It has never been shown to be the case that statins have benefited women. Doctors who prescribe statins to women (in either a primary a secondary care situation) should be held to be criminally negligent, in my view, for there is no supporting science and no possible justification for such an action.

Males over the age of 50 in both primary and secondary care, have also been shown to derive no benefit from statins. Cholesterol is essential (inter alia) for cell integrity and myelin production and it has never been positively shown that it is linked to heart disease aetiology, since the days when Ancel Keys and the initial Framingham study promulgated such nonsense.

Unless the medical profession can provide proof of the science that is driving wholesale stainisation of people, there is no case for it. If you were to ask for the proof of the cholesterol/heart hypothesis from your doctor, he/she would not be able to provide it to you... at any price, for it does not exist.

As for attenuated tetanus vaccine being responsible for your ALS, can you provide a copy of the enclosure that proves it was the responsible agent? I have had to give people tetanus shots over my decades of health service work and I have never been aware of a risk of ALS from vaccine. Perhaps the USP information sheet is different to that which is included with Tetanus vaccine in the UK.

Kind regards,
also Jeff

 

[vmd]

I'm curious about the tetanus vaccine and MND connection as well because some here have stated that they were vaccinated sometime before their symptoms of MND became apparent (including myself).

 

[patricia1]

Go To Tetnus Package Insert Then Scroll Down To Tetnus Vaccine

 

[Al]

I think a lot of people missed post # 24 in this thread. Well worth looking at again.
AL.

 

[patricia1]

We All Want To Blame Somethingthe Where We Live, Work, Play, Eat ,ingest The Truth Is We Really Dont Know. We All Have A Story. The Answer Is We Need Answers. Pat