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Stevemttttt

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My name is Stephen. I am 34 and live in the Uk. I am crying out for help and advice.

I have noticed in the last week i have lost weight, and it is very clear that both my biceps are much smaller and softer. Especially the right one.

Do go along with this i get twitches all over my body when resting, more so in my legs. I also get cramps in my biceps and feet. Tonight it was my right bicep which lasted for about 2 min and then my big toe which last a little less.

I am not in pain but my hands are much stiffer, especially my thumb.

I am very worried about all my symptoms, but especially the decreasing size of my biceps. The even feel different. Would this be denervation?? I dont go to the gym, so its nothing to do with that.

I thought it might be atrophy, but i realised this happens once the muscle has died.

I have been too my gp for a slight weakness and reflex test etc which had no negative results, plus my bloods came back normal for defiencies.

I am frightened that the bicep shrinkage is denervation.

I would appreciate you help.

Stephen
 

ShiftKicker

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Mod note- moved thread to DIHALS

Steven, please have a read here: https://www.alsforums.com/forum/do-i-have-als-als/26591-read-before-posting-answers-common-concerns-about-possible-symptoms.html Hopefully this will reassure you.

Shrinking muscles do not equal denervation. If you are struggling with fitness or feel like you should be tracking muscle strength/size, a physiotherapist is your absolute best bet. They will provide you a posture and fitness assessment for a baseline and give you a reasonable fitness plan to follow. If there is any issue after a few sessions, they can let you know what there may be concern about and you can go from there.
 

Stevemttttt

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Shiftkicker,

Thanks for messaging me.

When i checked denervation, it says it reduces the size of the muscle in question and this causes the muscle to stop working followed by paralyses then atrophy?

What is denervation? Thanks for your time. I cannot thank you enough.
 

Nikki J

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Denervation is the interruption of the nerve signal to the muscle. In ALS the motor neuron dies and the signal can’t get through causing the muscle(s) not to work and disuse later causes shrinkage ( atrophy). I don’t know what you read but do read the post linked above
 

Stevemttttt

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Hi Nikki,

Thank you for measaging me.

I read a old post on here from a brazilian man who mentioned one of his symptoms was denervation of his biceps. Because i saw a difference in my biceps, i clicked on the link he posted and it explained that denervation attacked the muscle by stopping the neurons and this would stop the muscle from working and cause atrophy. Is this wrong?

In regards to MND, when would denervation normally happen and is this common? Does atrophy only happen once the muscle has stopped working?

Thanks for all your help.
 

KarenNWendyn

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Denervation means that nerve supply to a muscle is cut off. The most common reason for denervation is injury to the nerve. This can occur from trauma, arthritis (with compression of the nerve), metabolic causes (thyroid disease, diabetes), toxin exposure, and for many unknown reasons. Motor neuron disease is at the bottom of the list.

Please know also that reduced muscle size can also occur from deconditioning, problems with body mechanics, disuse due to joint or tendon pain, weight loss from other illnesses, certain medications, metabolic conditions, and primary muscle diseases. So denervation is not always the cause of reduced muscle size, and ALS is an uncommon cause of denervation.

In ALS, atrophy occurs after a muscle loses its nerve supply. Usually weakness that a neurologist can detect on exam occurs prior to noting significant atrophy.

Nothing in your post suggests ALS. I would recommend a good general medical evaluation and referral to a physiotherapist.
 

Stevemttttt

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Karen,

Many thanks.

My arms are ok at the moment, so does this rule out anything to do with ALS and atrophy regarding my biceps?

The cramps are often and the twitches are 24/7. Is this worrying?

Also, os weight loss a symptom of ALS?

Thank you
 

ShiftKicker

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Steve-

Looking at your incredibly panicked posts here, I think it is really important you read through the responses you have received very carefully and take the advice given. You keep asking the same questions- all of which are answered by the pinned post and seconded by the people who have also answered you.

A digest:

Read here: https://www.alsforums.com/forum/do-i-have-als-als/26591-read-before-posting-answers-common-concerns-about-possible-symptoms.html

Only a doctor can assess atrophy. It is NOT "smaller" muscles. It is an absence and a doctor can tell the difference on sight. You can not do this on your own. Particularly if you are in the throes of panic. God see a doctor, as advised. Not because you have reported anything at all resembling ALS, but because you need reassurance. You do not seem to be able to get it from the people who have answered you.

Please post back AFTER you have seen a doctor. Any further questions should be answered by them. You have been answered here 3 times now and it is time to take the advice you have been given. You don't report anything like the pattern of symptoms that indicate ALS.
 

Stevemttttt

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Shiftkicker,

It says, Muscle atrophy is defined as a decrease in the mass of the muscle. This is whats happening to my bicep. The right one in particular.

Stephen
 

Nikki J

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All atrophy has a decrease in muscle size. The reverse is not always true. Decrease in muscle size is not always atrophy. And atrophy is not always mnd either. As Shiftkicker says see a doctor to get evaluated and please do not post again unless you are reporting that a doctor has found clinical weakness and atrophy.
 

Stevemttttt

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Nikki,

Thank you for your response.

One last question - I thought atrophy only happens once you can no longer use the muscle?
 

lgelb

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Atrophy does not only show up when the muscle is useless.

As Nikki says, please don't post again unless there are new findings to support your fears. Absent those, which would be a good thing and is the strongest possibility, ShiftKicker's suggestion to see a physio for baseline evaluation is a good one.

Best,
Laurie
 

Stevemttttt

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Is Atrophy common before clinical weakness and paralysis?

What percentage of people diagnosed experience atrophy before any weakness?

I am very concerned about the muscle mass loss in my right bicep. I havent done any training (gym) in years, so its nothing to do with that.

Sorry, but i am scared. Thanks everyone
 

ShiftKicker

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Steve- you have been asked 3 times now to not post till after a doctor's visit. This thread has been closed- please do not open another till after a visit with the doctor. Ask the doctor your questions as it relates to your muscles during your exam.
 

Stevemttttt

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Atrophy

Hello everyone,

I have noticed over the last 4 weeks my biceps have became smaller and softer.

My arms and hands become weaker but go back to full strength, and then become weaker again within hours. Could this be a sign of ALS?

I thought Atrophy only happened when paralysis kicked in? One last question, is atrophy a early sign of MND?
 
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