How much do you want to believe...

[Clearwater AL]

How much do you want to believe according to scripture.

At the age of 950 years, Noah, who shepherded God's creatures through
the Flood, died. He left behind three sons, from whom the human race
descended, Were there women on board besides Noah’s wife? His
daughters? He left behind three sons... how old were they?

Was one Black, was one Oriental, one Native American?

A pair of every animal on earth? (Only Christianity and Judaism
believe in Noah.) How did he manage to get animals from North
America, South America, China? By boat or did they swim over to
the Ark?

This Flood occurred about 5000 years ago, three thousand years before
Christ died. Theophilus' calculations, the world was from 5600 to 6000
years old. So much for the thousands of Dinosaur bones that have been
found that are millions of years old.

Concerning the age of the Earth, the Bible's genealogical records combined
with the Genesis 1 account of creation are used to estimate an age for the
Earth and universe of about 6000 years old. So much for the fossil fuel
millions of years old we use every day.

The Web telescope has found galaxies that are billion years old and the
same in distance… science. Was “Let there be light” the Big Bang then
creation in six days and rested on the seventh day? Now Christians
Sunday observance.

Many believe the Bible is the Word of God. The Bible was written by
man… from what they heard, from some witnesses and some who
claim God spoke to them directly. Moses?

Other religions are pretty much based on the same.

How much do you want to believe is actually factual? Did Noah
live to be 950 years old?

I’m not here to question or challenge those who have devout belief
that gives them peace and comfort… no matter what religion.

But to a degree of...

PS. I've got to add... the Evangelicals who faithfully follow and believe
the former really won the last election other than President Biden.

Belief to another degree.

 

[wmilo]

Thanks, Al, for bringing this perspective. On this topic, views vary widely. In fact, I think that some self-identifying Christians would agree with your words.

Others would interpret the text literally, and I think there is room for both. We confess a common faith in Christ and that must be sufficient.

Regarding your examples, I think a majority of Christians would understand that the Bible includes different types of literature: history, poetry, prophecy, wisdom literature, biography, letters, etc., and that the Creation and Flood accounts can be understood as establishing a worldview and for the deeper truths they reveal rather than as newspaper accounts, without throwing out the whole book. For me, those who believe a seven-day creation are welcome along with other believers wherever we are gathered.

UPDATE: On October 27, 2023, the DailyMaildotcom published in the Science section an article with the headline "Has Noah's Ark been found? Archaeologists reveal 'ruins' found in Turkey's boat-shaped mound date back 5,000 years ago"

 

[Clearwater AL]

Sometimes I wonder what Jesus would have to say about
the current Bible. The Popes who followed after Constantine
organized the Bible 300 years after he died,

It was Pope Gregory 1, 600 years after Jesus died, who without
a shred of proof, declared Mary Magdalene was a prostitute
even though he was far from celebant himself. Then the
several corrupt Popes following him. There are few Popes
who had children.

Most of the Apostles were sinners before they followed Jesus.
And, some were bothered about the relationship Jesus had with
Mary Magdalene in their writings Pope Gregory 1 drew from.

Several of the Apostles were married and had children. It is
becoming more and more that Mary Magdalene was Jesus’s
common wife. In that era, Jewish man in his late 20s, early 30s
without a wife was very rare… often criticized.

A big church near me has a big sign that says…
“Jesus is coming soon. Are you ready?” I hope so… if he does.
It may not work out to well for me but I’ll be interested in what
he says.

I wonder what Jesus would say about the following…

Now, currently the Vatican financial corruption being uncovered
more and more. And the billions of dollars of precious paintings,
gold and artifacts the Vatican is holding. And MEGA Christian
churches worth millions, Millionaire Evangelicals with Lear jets,
live in mansions, Rolex watches, even vacation homes.

So much for the poor… the people Jesus preached for. I wonder
what he and God are thinking now. Maybe we’ll see soon. Maybe.

Don’t mean to offend anyone but I (me) have my doubt that the
Bible is the Word of God.

 

[KimT]

I've delved into the original translations of the books that comprise the Bible. Originally, the old testament was a group of stories passed down from generation to generation. It did contain then-Jewish laws and rules. I've spoken to Jewish religious scholars and the ones I've spoken to do not believe their books were ever meant in a literal sense. The literal take on Bible stories came about about the 3rd century.

The substitution atonement came about centuries later.

Jews often used scripture to start conversations, not to prove arguments.

The very early Catholics were split in their belief. Those who followed St. Francis were mystics. They believed in a more universal way and still do today. In other words, they had respect for all religions and weren't afraid of hell. They didn't believe in hell and the terms that were translated to hell in the new testament were translated incorrectly.

I believe in God. I believe in the teachings of Jesus is a good way to lead my life. I believe Jesus rebelled from Government, was popular, and was killed because of this. I don't believe He was sent by God to die for our sins. I believe he was here to set us free from our own demons and teach us how to live.

After I studied world religions I learned that most of the proverbs in the Book of Solomon were versions of things already written before Solomon lived.

Most of it doesn't matter to me because I believe in God and try to follow Jesus. Jesus never asked us to worship Him. He asked us to follow him.

 

[wmilo]

Thanks, Kim, for this perspective, too. I think many Christians would subscribe to your thinking.

I do think it is clear that Jesus believed the OT. The NT records nineteen instances where Jesus quoted the OT, comprising about one tenth of his recorded words. He also affirmed the OT in passages such as :

Jn 10:36-36 "If he called them ‘gods,’ to whom the word of God came—and Scripture cannot be set aside—what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world?"
Mt 5:17-18 "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished." [the 'Law" being the Torah, the first five books of the OT]
Lk 24:25-27 "He said to them, 'How foolish you are, and how slow to believe all that the prophets have spoken! Did not the Messiah have to suffer these things and then enter his glory?' And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he explained to them what was said in all the Scriptures concerning himself."

The idea of substitutionary atonement is found throughout the Bible. The sacrifice of the lamb at Passover prior to the Exodus pictured Christ's death. This is confirmed by the words of John the Baptist in John 1:29, where it says, "The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, 'Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!' ". Isaiah 53:4-5 says, "Surely he took up our pain and bore our suffering, yet we considered him punished by God, stricken by him, and afflicted. But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was on him, and by his wounds we are healed." Jesus referred to this in Mark 10:45 when he said "For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.” Paul says this explicitly in Romans 3:23-25 [written AD 56-57] writing, "...for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith.", and in 2 Corinthians 5:21, "God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God." Other passages provide similar support.

Al, you said, "Most of the Apostles were sinners before they followed Jesus." They were all sinners, as well as me, you, and Kim. As Paul wrote above, "all have sinned".

You also wondered what God and Jesus think now. I think they are probably broken hearted.

Whatever differences of views we may have, for my part I am happy to discuss them but I don't see any point in arguing or fighting about them. Not helpful.

 

[Clearwater AL]

It’s a good thing for you that you have such deep faith. I wasn’t
arguing, in so many words you are doing the same… referring
again to numerous scriptures and passages.

You quote so much. For me… it was all (what Jesus said) hearsay,
interpreted from recall then supposedly written down,... that day,
that night, the next day? Remember, the Apostles were not scholarly
educated men. And the Old Testament for the most part was the
same maybe even more many many years before.

You could listen to me give a short speach… unless you are sitting
there with pen and paper… later you will be relying on your recall
and memory. No one knows if the Apostles were sitting there with
pen and paper taking notes. Again, their interpretation of what
he said. I don’t believe Jesus told them write this down as I
speak.

I was taught when Jesus would talk, the Apostles did ask Jesus to
explain at times.

You don't see any point in arguing or fighting about them. Not helpful.

That’s your point of view… for others it maybe helpful for their
thinking yet not dismissing their believe that Jesus was real and
there is God the Father. This is a discussion… a forum.

Again, I am comfortable with you having such devout faith that
brings you peace and comfort. Peace.

 

[wmilo]

The reason I cite Scripture is it is the only thing we can agree on: what the text says. Aside from some church traditions, we don't have anything else that is objective to look at. We may differ on the meaning but we begin at the same place.

I consider providing those references part of the discussion, not arguing in the sense of by trying to be quarrelsome . (I get that a definition of argument is the act of reasoning or discussing, and I am doing that.)

If someone is talking about the founding and beliefs of a religion it seems to me that the founding documents should be the primary source of information. If someone makes a statement about Christian faith or belief - whether or not they identify as Christian - it makes sense to me to see if the Bible supports or contradicts that statement.

Your point about how accurate the accounts are is fair. The gospels are based on first-person accounts (Matthew and John) or from talking to people who were there (Mark and Luke), recorded 50-90 AD, or twenty to sixty years after the resurrection. In seems possible that the extraordinary events would have made a very strong impression on the people who lived them, with strong memories. Many Christians believe that God guided the writers, but there is no way to prove it.

My comment about arguing and fighting wasn't the best. I meant that I don't have ill feeling toward anyone with different views, and I want to be respectful in my statements.

You are right that these exchanges might be helpful to others and I hope that they are.

 

[wmilo]

Hi, Kim. If you are interested in the original languages, it has become very easy to see an interlinear version (a line of Hebrew or Greek followed by the English translation) online. On the site biblehub dot com, navigate to a verse and click "Interlin" at the top of the page.

Interesting comment about the split in view between Catholics. The main religious groups during Jesus' time (the Pharisees and Sadducees) were also divided on that point, with the Pharisees believing in an afterlife and the Sadducees not.

I think I know what you mean about the term Hell being translated incorrectly. The words Sheol (Hebrew) and Hades (Greek) both meaning 'place of the Dead', and Gehenna (Hebrew) meaning a real valley near Jerusalem, where the kings of Judah had sacrificed children to the god Molech and which later became later a garbage dump, are all translated as "Hell" (Norse/Saxon). By Jesus' time, Gehenna had become a metaphor in Jewish writing for a place of suffering after death. From what I can see, Jesus is quoted twice saying Hell, and both times it is Gehenna in Greek. He also compares it to a fire, a furnace, and to outer darkness.

Jesus does call us to follow him, and also to love him, and to obey him, and to believe in him.
John 6:29-20 "Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?” Jesus answered, 'The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.' ”

 

[Clearwater AL]

I could get into this but… To rely on just four Gospels (Mathew, Mark,
Luke and John) when there are other Gospels that were left out… isn’t
really helpful either.

The Gospel of John, sometimes called "the spiritual gospel," was probably
composed between 90 and 100 CE. John is said to have lived to old age,
dying of natural causes at Ephesus sometime after AD 98, It sure wasn’t
within days or months after Jesus said that to him.

There was the Gospel of Mary… Gregory 1 refused to acknowledge
because it would interfere with his wanting to make Mary Magdalene
a prostitute. The gospel of Peter is another, the Gospel of Paul left out,
the Gospel of James, the Gospel of Thomas... left out.

Mary Magdalene was closest Apostle, so much the other Apostles had a
degree of jealous to her. Fueling Gregory 1’s dislike of women concerning his
idea of Jesus.

Again, I have doubts about referring to and quoting from just four Gospels
when others were left out just to please one person’s idea of what the
New Testament should be.

 

[wmilo]

Thanks, Al, for another great question. I appreciate being able to talk with you and Kim about these topics.

The question of why some writings are included in the Bible and others not is complex. A lot has been written on this subject; more than can be considered here. Those interested in more detail can enter terms such as "Old Testament Canon" or "New Testament Canon" in their search engine of choice. ("Canon" is a Greek word meaning measuring stick or rule, in this context referring to the writings included in Scripture.)

There are two opposing schools of thought about this subject: one is the traditional view which accepts the claims of authorship. content, and dating from the text and which were held by the early church (Jewish and Christian). Those views were not unanimous, but were in substantial agreement.

The opposing view, sometimes called critical theory or critical analysis, developed under the influence of Rationalism in the 1500s, and rejected the possibility of any Divine involvement in the writings. In order to account for claims made under the former view, theories were proposed which denied the content, authorship, and dating accepted by the traditional view. It should be noted that these later views were not based on new empirical evidence, but instead were needed to create explanations for the traditional claims when the possibility of Divine involvement was excluded. Arguments regarding oral tradition and late dates of writing have been deprecated by the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls, which contain much earlier copies of Biblical books, and references in the OT texts indicating a sequential composition and sharing of information among the books.

The traditional view of what is Scripture, both Jewish and Christian, is based on the concept of Divine inspiration; that is, that God has revealed himself to humanity, through direct contact and through influencing the spoken words and writings of chosen individuals. It therefore becomes our task not to choose which works are inspired, but rather to identify them. A rough analogy would be to have a group of stones which might be diamonds. Rather than accepting them all because they are similar in appearance, knowing that the genuine diamonds are of much greater value, we would test them as best we were able to identify the genuine stones.

The idea that Scripture is from God is based on the claims of the Bible itself, including the teachings of Jesus. Some writers recognized that other writings were also inspired. [There is other evidence that Scripture is from God but it is not relevant here.)

The question of what is inspired is paramount because what is from God represents Truth, and is authoritative for those who wish to follow God and to be obedient to him.

For the OT, the emphasis was on the writer being a prophet; one called by God to deliver his words. This led to disagreements regarding books such as the Song of Solomon, the Book of Ruth, and the Book of Esther. Over time, the idea that writers other than prophets could be inspired came to be accepted. (That is, be inspired by God, not in the sense of being inspired to write a book or piece of music.)

For the NT, It is apparent that the NT writers viewed the OT as authoritative based on how frequently it is quoted, so the idea of an authoritative group of writings was already accepted by the NT church. As the Gospels were written down, and circulated among the churches along with the letters of Paul and others, they came to be viewed with the same authority as the OT. The emphasis was more on Apostolic authority than prophetic office. Also, the early church had to establish which documents they knew to be genuine, to counter heretical writing which falsely claimed apostolic authorship in order to gain weight.

The various councils, rather than making new lists of accepted books, tended instead to codify what was already accepted.

Here are some examples of what is alluded to above, although not an exhaustive list:

• The OT is full of declarations that "The word of the Lord came" or "Thus says the Lord".
• Exodus 3 describes how God called Moses at Mt. Horeb. God tells Moses what he is to say, and gives him signs to prove his authority, telling him in Exodus 4, "I will help you speak and will teach you what to say.”
• Many chapters of Leviticus begin, "The Lord said to Moses...".
• Isaiah 6 tells of Isaiah's calling, saying, "Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, 'Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?' And I said, 'Here am I. Send me!' He said, “Go and tell this people:..."
• Jeremiah 1 describes Jeremiah's calling: "The word of the Lord came to me, saying, 'Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations.' 'Alas, Sovereign Lord,' I said, 'I do not know how to speak; I am too young.' But the Lord said to me, 'Do not say, ‘I am too young.’ You must go to everyone I send you to and say whatever I command you. Do not be afraid of them, for I am with you and will rescue you,' declares the Lord. Then the Lord reached out his hand and touched my mouth and said to me, 'I have put my words in your mouth.'
• The prophet Hosea called Moses a prophet. Hos 12:13, "The Lord used a prophet to bring Israel up from Egypt."
• Daniel recognized that Jeremiah was a prophet. Dan 9:2, "...in the first year of his [Darius son of Xerxes] reign, I, Daniel, understood from the Scriptures, according to the word of the Lord given to Jeremiah the prophet, that the desolation of Jerusalem would last seventy years.
• The writer of Hebrews wrote of God's inspiration of the prophets and of Jesus' divinity. Heb 1:1-2, "In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe."
• In 1 Timothy 3:16, Paul states, "All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness..." (Referring to the OT.}
• In 2 Peter 1:20-21, Peter writes, "Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet’s own interpretation of things. For prophecy never had its origin in the human will, but prophets, though human, spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit." (Also referring to the OT.}
• Matthew makes frequent references to OT prophecy to show that it was fulfilled in the life of Jesus. In Matthew 2:17-18, Herod has ordered that all boys in Bethlehem age two and under be killed, and Matthew says, "Then what was said through the prophet Jeremiah was fulfilled: 'A voice is heard in Ramah, weeping and great mourning...' "
• Luke 24:27 recounts how Jesus, following his resurrection, meets two disciples on the road to Emmaus. "And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he explained to them what was said in all the Scriptures concerning himself."

You commented, "There was the Gospel of Mary… Gregory 1 refused to acknowledge because it would interfere with his wanting to make Mary Magdalene a prostitute." Gregory I lived AD 540 to AD 604. The Gospel of Mary was discovered in 1896. (Wikipedia source for both.)

I hope the above has illustrated why the contents of the New Testament (or Old Testament) are not there to please one person’s idea of what the New Testament should be.

If anyone finds something helpful in The Gospel of Mary or one of the non-canonical books you mentioned or in any other source, good for them, as long as it doesn't contradict anything that is contained in the Bible.

 

[Clearwater AL]

Whatever... this subject could go round and round. There is your devout belief to believe.
Then there are those who question. I will always keep my stand the Bible is based on
hearsay, being there are no writings from Jesus himself... written by man.

Yes, I was mistaken on the Gospel of Mary. Maybe like those who wrote their Gospels.

There was a military test, 20 men were lined up, the first one told, "The Germans are
advancing on the western flank. Number 20 said, "The Germans are dancing on a wet plank."
No joke. As I wrote a few years ago... when I was in the military my unit read messages
for real intent, deception or deflection.

It's difficult for me to accept the Bible is the Word of God.... he could do better than what
we have. I believe he has got to be disappointed. He is also probably wondering how
there are now almost 100 different forms of Christianity... Baptists, Catholics, Lutheran,
Orthodox, Quaker, Church of God, Calvin, Pentecostal, Protestant and more. Many of those
have sub divisions. All with different interpretations of the Word of God... the Bible.

Where I live there are numerous Christian churches within a mile or 5 miles of each other
and two that are practically across the road of each other. Even a Jehovah Witness church
which is also a form of Christianity.

(And yes, God and Jesus must crying over the children that were/are abused by clergy not
just by the Catholic Church... others too.)

Other religions have just one, two, three or maybe four interpretations of their God's
word and those they believe as prophets

Wmilo, again, I admire your devout faith that gives you comfort, peace, your sense
of direction and to where you will be.

 

[wmilo]

Thanks, Al, for your honest and gracious reply.

I believe you're right about the divisions among those who claim to follow the same God and Savior, and about God's sorrow about how we treat each other. That is nothing new, as clearly written in the Bible.

I'm glad that you seem to still have a belief in God, in spite of the many ways we have failed to follow him in spirit and in action. I hope that he will bless your desire to understand the truth.

 

[wmilo]

I should have stated that I referred to online portions of the Zondervan Pictorial Encyclopedia of the Bible for some of the above information.