Another is this ALS

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Buglaw

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Joined
Jun 20, 2022
Messages
79
Reason
DX MND
Diagnosis
10/2022
Country
US
State
IL
City
Chicago
Hi all,

I’m sure the answer is talk to your doctor, wait for the test results, and stop freaking out. I’m mostly looking for people to tell me it could easily be things other than ALS. I started having speech issues in November of last year. They have progressively gotten worse and I am difficult to understand frequently, have slow speech, difficulty pronouncing words, etc. I also have muscle twitches. Initial consultation wit Neurologist said unlikely to be ALS (and a host of other things) and ordered MRI and swallow study. Those are coming up next week. I wasn’t that concerned about ALS. Then, I recently realized my arm muscles are twitching nonstop, certain face muscles, including my tongue which looks exactly like all those ALS tongue twitch videos. I realized I shouldn’t google symptoms and I’m not a doctor, but I’m posting on here in the hopes people can tell me diseases other than ALS can cause speech issues, twitching (including that als tongue twitch) and that I should just calm down and go through the process.

Sorry for making another is this ALS post.
 
Don't look at any more twitch videos. That's not how ALS is diagnosed.

Yes, calm down and go through the process. The odds are still very much in your favor, as your doc indicated.

Best,
Laurie
 
Please calm down and go through the process. That being said, it's not easy to calm down and I know that. I'm very much in favor of happy distractions whenever you engage in something that's interesting or fun or relaxing, it will take your mind of this. Twitching means nothing, there are many reasons for speech trouble. Really stay away from videos of people sticking their tongue in your face, that's just not helping anybody. It sounds like you're taken seriously by your doctors, so you're in good hands. No reason to try to self-diagnose.
 
Thanks both. I was freaking myself out. This helps a lot. I’m going to stay off google.
 
Mine was diagnosed by EMG and then gene testing. c9 gene was done with Invitae labs. Other genes were done by Labcorp. I use magnesium for twitching.
 
Hi all,

I posted a thread a few months ago titled “is this another ALS thread.” I got good advice to calm down from everyone and that it’s likely not ALS. That was very helpful and likely good advice for most people. Anyways, I got the diagnosis for bulbar onset today. We are working through the other exclusions, but given the speed of my symptom progression (apparently quite fast, I’m having a lot of difficulty speaking more than a few words), my mental health (I have been struggling quite a bit) and my life station (I work a demanding high stress professional job, have a two year old and my wife is three months pregnant) she felt it didn’t make sense to wait before getting us in front of the proper resources to deal with what she strongly thinks has a very very high probability to be ALS. She heads an ALS center In a major city by me. I’ll definitely be getting a second opinion, but she thinks by far the most likely possibility is ALS and the next most likely copycats have been ruled out by earlier tests. There are still some hail Mary’s left, however.

I’m making this post for a couple reasons. First, I wanted to tell someone and start to get integrated here. Since speaking has become very difficult for me, I’ve found myself turning more to online forums. I’ll likely be an active participant for as long as I can type (or I get the extremely good news that it turns out its not ALS).

Second, I had a particularly unpleasant experience with a neurologist during the diagnostic phase that I think is wort documenting for future people who are going through the process. After a couple of virtual discussions with my initial neurologist (no in-person), he ordered an MRI and a swallow study. I was getting progressively more anxious as my symptoms got worse and my speech started breaking down at work and i started having panic attacks when this happened. I started getting lightheaded and dizzy (typical anxiety symptoms) and my neurologist seemed irritated when I contacted him and wouldn’t respond with anything helpful. My GP essentially told me it was reasonable to go the ER if I was having slurred speech and dizziness. So, I did. I was seen by a speech pathologist and a rotating crew of neurologists who liked to point out my symptoms to the residents (tremors, inappropriate laughing exaggerated reflexes significant jaw tremor, etc.). The speech pathologist and neurologist who saw me in person referred me to the neuromuscular unit, and said they thought it probably wasn’t ALS as they saw no muscle wasting but was pretty clearly neuromuscular. I called the next day to make the appointment. I got a call back a few hours later from the scheduler and was informed that the neurologist who saw me virtually had called the head of the neuromuscular unit to say there was absolutely no reason to see me as I had no relevant symptoms. I sent him a bit of a nasty gram saying he had never seen me in person and on what basis was he overruling the three neurologists who did see me in person. He refused to respond and asked me to come in person.

Once I saw him in person his first words were that I sounded much better (I had said nothing but “hi”). He then conducted an exam, that examined pretty much everything that was not part of the abnormal symptoms reported. He had me do squats, walk in a line, did not check my reflexes, did not check my jaw jerk, barely looked at my tongue, etc. He then kept mentioning how my speech seemed to change minute to minute (true it would start to break down so I would slow down and focus harder). He then essentially told me he thought it was either all anxiety or that I was faking the symptoms for attention. He said I put on a “great show” for the doctors at the hospital. He then said it was irrational for me to be concerned about ALS since I could do squats, walk fine and wasn’t showing limb weakness. he recommended I take a low dose anti-depressant to help with sleep, he ordered some tests and told me to come back in 3 months. The tests were negative. I Messaged him about my worsening symptoms and asked for a speech therapy recommendation. He granted the speech therapy recommendation, but refused to refer me to any specific speech therapist and told me to call around and find one in network. I finally found one I could get in, they took a look at me and said I needed to see their ENT first. The ENT looked at me said he was quite concerned and I needed to see the head of the ALS clinic. I saw the head of the ALS clinic who reviewed my test results, examined me and gave me the diagnosis. She said she is trying to be generous, but she doesn’t understand how any neurologist could examine me and be anything other than very concerned. I want to flag that the neurologist I saw who did not take me seriously is an extremely well regarded neurologist at a top research hospital. I’m not really sure what, if any, lessons this provides to anyone in the future. But, I felt horrible for three months. My symptoms kept progressing, and I was pretty sure they were real, but had some nagging doubts that I just had serious mental health issues. I continued to think this even after a psychiatrist and two therapists told me that in their opinion there was no way my symptoms were caused by anxiety. To be quite honest, the diagnosis has felt good as I was concerned that I was going crazy and everything was just in my head. It’s nice to know my understanding of reality appears to be sound (to be honest, scarier to me than ALS).

Anyways, bitter rant about care aside, I look forward to being part of the community (unless I get great news).
 
I have merged your threads since you are not yet formally diagnosed, and we generally advise a second opinion as well following that diagnosis. Thus, it seems a bit early for you to introduce yourself as newly diagnosed, or to caution others about the diagnostic process.

We do try not to feed what are usually groundless fears of ALS' being missed, since there is a pretty robust routine for identifying it, e.g. neurological exam, medical history, labs, often imaging and/or other testing as part of ruling out mimics. This is the case whether onset is respiratory, bulbar, or limb.

The notion that ALS is often overlooked is unfortunately a significant contributor to the health anxiety that is prevalent here. Obviously, we are always sorry to hear of any clinician that fails to follow clinical protocols, but in this disease state that is fortunately the exception.

If you could post your deidentified EMG, that would be helpful. Since you mention a clinic "near your city" (Chicago), I will point out that there are likely no better ALS clinics in your neck of the woods than in the city itself, including UIC, UC, and Northwestern. Or perhaps I am misunderstanding where you have sought care.

Again, if this is ALS, of course, we will support you, but as you note, there is still room for doubt.

Best,
Laurie
 
Thanks. I definitely agree with all of the points you are making. I was originally referred by the first neurologist who saw me to Northwestern clinic, before the second neurologist called and blocked my apt. I’m going to Northwestern for the second opinion as I assume they won’t block my appointment a second time, and apparently they have the most resources for families with young children.

As to the remainder of the EMG point, I’m not really looking to crowdsource a diagnosis from a forum as I’m being taken quite seriously by a large number of neurologists at this point. I tend to doubt I’m going to get better info here than from them in what is a highly specialized and complicated diagnosis. the ALS doc also said emgs, beyond an abnormal result, are pretty limited as a diagnostic tool. They don’t tell you that you have ALS, they just rule it out if it’s (a) normal and (b) you don’t have other specific symptoms that are highly indicative of ALS. She said there is no standard ALS result or any result where you look at it and say aha! They have ALS based on the EMG.

As to your points about not unnecessarily worrying people, I agree 100% we don’t want to cause unnecessary worry to folks. That being said, (a) most ALS diagnosis are missed for a very long time. I was told my experience is not that uncommon (besides the bizzare behavior of a neurologist who had never examined me in person blocking the recommendation of those who had) and it takes on average 18 months for a diagnosis from symptom onset, which means a ton of people are frequently missing als diagnoses during that time period. (b) even if my post does cause additional concern to folks, it is an accurate post and we shouldn’t be censoring factually accurate information.

What I think makes more sense than posting test results for non-medical folks without expertise who have not examined me in person to pour over is that I just update this thread if/when a formal diagnosis is made. Happy to post all results at that point. If it turns out to be something else (very highly possible) it can be a good record that even people who run accredited ALS centers are frequently wrong. If it is unfortunately confirmed, then it’s worth documenting the process even if feedings into peoples fears.

FWIW, I did not think I had ALS for the last 3 months. I was pretty sure I had something, but was 98% sure not ALS given the extreme and mocking reaction I got from a highly regarded neurologist that my fears were totally unfounded. I wasn’t out there trolling for secondary ALS diagnoses and had moved on to thinking it was some rare disease that must just be super hard to diagnosis that causes pseudobulbar symptoms, progressive spastic/flaccid dysarthria, fascilltions and progressive muscle weakness.
 
I am so very sorry that you encountered such an arrogant ( and strange) doctor and glad you have someone now working with you. I also hope the final diagnosis is different. We did have someone here earlier this year whose 30 something husband was told at an als clinic to expect a diagnosis at their next visit and even started on riluzole. The next visit yielded a different diagnosis. Still serious but significantly less dire. may you have the same luck.

I do take issue with your comments on diagnostic delay. These people who take 18 months are not rushing to see a neurologist at their first symptom. They are ignoring symptoms seeing pcps and other non neurologist doctors, trying pt or other measures and waiting for results and for appointments. Mostly once someone sees a neurologist if not quickly diagnosed they are told there is something wrong and closely followed. Your experience was highly atypical in that the neurologist made a diagnosis without seeing you in person and then arrogantly and inexplicably stuck to it. Most people here see a neurologist in person and get examined. When you were seen by a different neurologist and actually examined you were not told fine.
 
For future readers, let's also clarify that the EMG is not for ruleouts only. Specific EMG findings are part of the published clinical criteria for ALS diagnosis. They are not sufficient but they are indeed necessary.

I hope another explanation is in the cards for you.
 
lgelbg, sorry if I wasn't clear in my post on the EMG. I thought we were saying the same thing, but maybe there is some difference there.

I also didn't know about the 18 months either. Perhaps the neurologist was hoping to make me feel better about my situation. Apologies for any bad info I may have given. I'll check back in a few weeks when I either get good news or the ALS is formally confirmed.
 
I hope this turns out to be something else.
If you are not willing to submit your EMG here, then I think you just need to step back from here, wait for a formal diagnosis and second opinion, and then be willing to post the evidence.
It seems your case is either complex, or borderline, so anything now is speculation on what you report and not really productive for anyone.
Take care of yourself in the meantime.
 
Thanks, guys. You are all right again. My case is definitely complicated and I wasn't giving all sides of the story. It was flat ruled out by Northwestern in August for various reasons. The main one is that my EMG in August was totally clean. The only reason they ordered it was precautionary since I had bulbar symptoms (tongue weakness and dysarthria). The guy doing it said not only was it clean, there wasn't even one minor suggestion that something was amiss. He even commented that I had particularly good muscle recruitment in my shoulder while testing and there was no reason to be concerned about MND. That is in the arm where I have the most fasiculations and what I think is progressing muscle weakness. I apparently did not get the EMG done at the right location at Northwestern (nobody explained it to me at the time that I should have had it done at Northwestern's neurodiagnostics department only), but I asked the guy while he was doing it how many of these he had done, and he says about 10-15 a month, so it's not like he was not experienced. I had totally (or at least 99.5%) banished the possibility from my head. I was totally floored Thursday when a different neurologist said that not only is ALS not ruled out, but it's the most likely cause of my symptoms and that I need a new EMG. I didn't even know I was there to be considered for MND, I thought it was for dystonia (I had some abnormal ENT results which referred me there). It's being run Wednesday on an accelerated schedule. As noted previously, prior testing had ruled out the majority of ALS mimics, so the diagnosis will be coming shortly after if it's abnormal as the neuro more or less says it will be. I told the neuro about the clean test and they said it was either done wrong or my symptoms have progressed as there is no way I could have a totally clean EMG today given very widespread fasciculations (tongue and all through my upper body). I also have significant tongue and facial weakness and what appears to be progressive weakness in my arm and other symptoms that are consistent with ALS (or other diseases). I even got the "there's a lot of life to still live" speech and was told to start touring the ALS clinics in Chicago and reach out to the ALS counselors, etc. The Neuro runs an accredited ALS clinic in Chicago that is associated with the ALS association. It's true my symptoms have progressed, and all are bulbar/respiratory onset ALS symptoms, but none of them are new. I had all of them in August when it was ruled out by EMG and during my prior neuro examinations.

I don't know why I didn't want to post it before, I was mostly just angry at the doctors who ruled out ALS and weren't taking me seriously (my dysarthria has gone significantly worse recently) and in a really bad emotional place. I'm sure the answer from you guys is to go through the diagnostic process and be extra skeptical of any diagnosis and get a second opinion. I already reached out and scheduled an appointment with the head of Northwestern's ALS clinic. This is bizzare though, right? I assume other people haven't had the experience of totally ruled out by EMG and three-four months later been told likely ALS by an ALS clinic.
 
Again, you seem to be jumping ahead. The statement that there is no way you would have a clean EMG today is opinion, not fact, and if it is being made on the basis of fascics per se, even more suspect. And even if there are new EMG findings on Wednesday, they could suggest an adult onset muscular dystrophy or inflammatory myopathy based on what you have reported.

General note -- ALS clinics can be associated with the ALSA or the MDA. There is no inherent difference between the two affiliations -- e.g., Johns Hopkins is affiliated with the MDA. It is strictly a money/historical difference.

Let us know the results...
 
Do let us know the results and thank you for clarifying the situation.
 
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