Alternative Therapy Question

[mlb]

Meg1,

I am sorry to say but these statistical figures mean nothing. Even if these figures were correct, there are over a billion people in China and very few have ever seen a western doctor. And the Japanese? They combine both western and Traditional medicine.

One can only speak from experience in such cases. My daughters, myself, my husband have all (and continue) been treated by a Traditional Chinese Practitioner. It is the best thing there is!

As far as ALS is concerned, I cannot say as I am not affected by the illness. My brother took it but not for long as by that time he had lost faith in all remedies. So I cannot talk about it being a "cure" for ALS. What I can say however, is that it does no harm and is relatively cheap.

I visit my practitioner for no reason sometimes except for him to give me some herbs to re-energize me. They work for me and for my family.

To borrow Joel's phrase "we have nothing to lose but everything to gain"...

:-D
Anna

 

[Meg1]

Meg1,

I am sorry to say but these statistical figures mean nothing. Even if these figures were correct, there are over a billion people in China and very few have ever seen a western doctor. And the Japanese? They combine both western and Traditional medicine.

One can only speak from experience in such cases. My daughters, myself, my husband have all (and continue) been treated by a Traditional Chinese Practitioner. It is the best thing there is!

As far as ALS is concerned, I cannot say as I am not affected by the illness. My brother took it but not for long as by that time he had lost faith in all remedies. So I cannot talk about it being a "cure" for ALS. What I can say however, is that it does no harm and is relatively cheap.

I visit my practitioner for no reason sometimes except for him to give me some herbs to re-energize me. They work for me and for my family.

To borrow Joel's phrase "we have nothing to lose but everything to gain"...

:-D
Anna

It's incorrect to say that nonevidence-based medicine "do(es) no harm." Anything that requires payment or keeps a sick person from seeking a proven treatment does at least potential harm. If you're taking those herbs (or whatever they are) instead of antibiotics, you're doing harm. People who are not ill, of course, do not require real medical treatment.

And I don't get your point about most Chinese never seeing a Western doctor. That's what I'm saying--Chinese medicine (i.e., the absence of evidence-based medicine) results in lower life expectancies. FWIW, the Japanese medical system is very, very Western. Even alternative practitioners in Japan are required to be MD's.

 

[mlb]

Who said non-evidenced based medicine? Chinese medicine is now recognized around the world ! If I hadn't and had my family been treated and cured by it I would not be writing this. It is the best and safest thing there is!

It is not a matter of buying green tea and drinking it. This ancient form of medicine requires many years of study and as I mentioned earlier, these practitioners study western medicine as well. My Chinese doctor can read x-rays when my own GP can't!

It is a pity that you do not open your mind to alternatives as without doubt you miss out on natural, harmless, effective treatments. I suppose you do not believe in acupuncture, massage or nutrition - this is Traditional Chinese Medicine!

By the way most of the Chinese population lives in poverty and the statistics you give are remarkable for a population that is poor and has no or little recourse to western medicine.

 

[mlb]

"Anything that requires payment or keeps a sick person from seeking a proven treatment does at least potential harm. If you're taking those herbs (or whatever they are) instead of antibiotics, you're doing harm."

Meg. No one is keeping a sick person from seeking a proven treatment but in the case of ALS I am not aware of a proven treatment. Can you elaborate?

We are striving to find, if not a cure, a way to alleviate, ease, arrest the symptoms of ALS. How will we do this without discussion?

Traditional Chinese Medicine is safe to have even when on western medication. There are no side effects.

I repeat. Chinese Herbal Medicine is safe to take with any medication, even antibiotics...

Same rule applies for Chinese Medicine as Western. You do not self-treat... The herbs are selected and mixed especially for your condition by a registered, certified Traditional Chinese Medical Practitioner.

Anna

 

[SIS]

Alternative Therapy

I'm in healthcare and when you are hit with a devasting disease of ALS it really makes you aware of everything. I carry the health insurance for my family and when our Neurologist wanted a second opinion he stated we should go to Lexington, KY - guess what my insurance didn't cover this hospital. My insurance home office is in Lextington, KY. explain this. We went to the Cleveland Clinic knowing that my insurance didn't cover this facility but desperate for a 2nd opinion I paid out of pocket. When you read all the materials about ALS the first thing they suggest is go to a ALS Clinic we are between Lexington and Cleveland the only two clinics and insurance does not cover. So when you are alone and start really thinking about our society you grasp for other alternatives. The other night on the news they had a special about pharm. reps and the influence they have on physicians (free lunches, gifts etc. etc.) and if you listen to the commercials about a particular drug listen to all the side effects and what other problems it could cause. Bottom line PMA (Positive Mind Attitude) is important when it comes to ALS.

So for my husband if the herbal tea is working it is worth gold to my family no matter what the cost. What I mean by working is it keeps him from being depressed and gives him energy and HOPE that the tea will slow down the progression. He is also on Rilutek which is very expensive per month. So I'm a believer in the herbal tea it gives a positive mind attitude and the site e-mails him every week to check on his progress. He doesn't feel like no one cares because they are checking on him. His neurologist does not call him and check on him.

Sorry for rambling but I'm really concerned with our healthcare in the USA. I'm beginning to think it is all about money and not about caring for the patient they treat.

 

[mlb]

Hi SIS.

I can only imagine how frustrating it is for you with your health system in the USA.

Here in Australia we experience the same things. Clinics owned by businessmen have set up in all suburbs whereby doctors have been set a target of patients to see during the day. I am not sure how many patients a day but I know that it is 10 minutes for each patient afterwhich they hurry you off. What can you say in ten minutes? There is no difference between McDonald's or a private clinic. They are all interested in the bottom dollar and neither about your health.

As for the Chinese Medicine, we (my family & I) have our own practioner whom we have been seeing for the past 20 years.

Take Care.
Anna

 

[rcharlton]

Same rule applies for Chinese Medicine as Western. You do not self-treat... The herbs are selected and mixed especially for your condition by a registered, certified Traditional Chinese Medical Practitioner.
Anna

Hi Anna, please don't consider this any kind of attack - but how are the herbs selected and mixed by a registered, certified Traditional Chinese Medical Practitioner - on what basis? If there is a recipe for ALS patients - from where is it derived? Have there been follow ups with previous PALS to determine its effectiveness?

How many ALS patients has your Chinese Medical Practitioner treated? What follow up has he done to determine the effectiveness of his treatment? Does he have case studies?

We are all in this together - we are all literally dying to find a cure. We all need to subject all information posted on this site to crtical and constructive thought in hopes of finding something that may really work for all of us.

This is why I love living in Canada ( I expect it is similar in Australia).

There seem to be two separate camps in the US - pro-alternative medicine and pro-conventional medicine. Both camps are going after the same healthcare dollars. The Alternative medicine camps argue that conventional medicine is just big business trying to get patients to subject themselves to unnecessary surgery and treatments where they can charge the big bucks.

This argument does not work in Canada. Medical Care is socialized - so the alternative medecine practitioners and conventional medecine practitioners are not after the same healthcare dollars. Conventional medicine practitioners are paid by the government – and there are caps on what can be billed – and most ALS specialists have more patients than they know what to do with – so any argument that these specialists would encourage unnecessary treatments cannot be supported. For the most part conventional medicine practitioners in Canada are indifferent as to whether patients also seek alternative treatments – other than concern over their patient’s health.

In Canada, it’s the alternative medicine practitioners that appear to be approaching healthcare like big business (which it is) and encouraging unnecessary treatments. Much of this is directed at the idle rich striving for youth and longevity – I have no sympathy for them; however, when is directed at the terminally ill – I become more critical.

I underwent acupuncture treatments for a while – until I started thinking (while feeling rather like a pin cushion) – this ND has never seen an ALS patient before – he has no real understanding of the disease – I’m I going to start relying on his opinion over that of my ALS specialist who has dedicated over 30 years of his life to finding a cure for this one illness and– who has undergone the most grueling and rigorous educational training out there? – vs. some guy who spent a couple of years at a community college? (BTW the acupuncture did nothing)

There is an MD here who also practices alternative medecine. Among some of the alternative treatments he offers is chelation therapy for "detox". There is a 6-8 month wait to book an appointment for his conventional practice; however, if you want chelation therapy, he will see you the next day. Why? Because chelation therapy for detox is not covered by our Gov't healthcare and he can charge big bucks and ask for payment up front.

I have my white tea every night ($4.99 for 100 bags) with an oatmeal cookie and it gives me great comfort and a sense of peace – even as I occasionally choke on some oatmeal my throat refuses to swallow.

 

[mlb]

Hi rcharlton,


I am soooooo pleased that you have an open and curious mind. This is the beginning of learning and discovery!

I am not a doctor but having a Chinese doctor, I know that each time I have a problem the herbs are different. They also taste different. I have found a site on the internet of which url I have copied but refuse to do so here so as to be "politically" correct. The site admittedly has an onsite store that sells books, videos, maps, relaxing music, etc.. as well as some tonics - all of which you can find at China Town in your city.

I am, however, pasting an excerpt here (there are 8 pages) on the subject.

Harmony of Body, Mind and Spirit
In the Orient, all philosophy, art and science are traditionally based on the fundamental realization that all things and all processes are interconnected. Oriental wise men and women long ago recognized the interconnectedness of the various parts of the body. The human body, mind and spirit are experienced as one complete whole, within themselves, with the environment and with the universe.
The notion of the unity of the body and psyche is fundamental to the Oriental healing arts. Changes in one's physical condition will result in changes in one's thinking and in one's intuitive and emotional processes. The mind likewise directly and indirectly influences gross and subtle changes in one's physical nature and in the actions we take. Virtually all aspects of health are rooted in the harmonious integration of the body and the psyche.
The Oriental health-maintenance and health-promotion arts, such as tonic herbalism, take full advantage of this oneness of body and psyche to help each person to grow to as full a state of health, well-being and spiritual awareness as the person is ready to achieve. The tonic herbs are used to bring about changes in one's physical condition; simultaneously, they are routinely used to influence the conscious and subconscious mind, the emotions and the human spirit.
No form of health care is complete unless it recognizes and utilizes this principle of the unity of physical and psychic energy. A Chinese tonic herbalist will never attempt to influence a change in just one aspect of a person's physical or psychic life In any case, such an attempt would be fruitless.
The goal of tonic herbalism is to help the tonic herbs user to establish a harmony of body, mind and spirit which can result in a new level of well-being, a new level of health and happiness that forms the foundation for a creative, successful life, as well as for true spiritual discovery, growth and, possibly, eventual mastery and enlightenment.

 

[mlb]

The very purpose of using Chinese tonic herbs is to aid the body-mind in its adaptive needs. The greatness of the Chinese tonic herbs lies in their adaptogenic quality; that is, the ability to enhance the body-mind's capacity to adapt optimally, accurately and with endurance to changes in the environment, and thus to overcome the stresses of life.
By replenishing the energy of the cells, tissues and systems that regulate our adaptability, we find ourselves capable of experiencing life at its fullest. We find ourselves with increased physical, mental and emotional endurance. We find ourselves easily handling stresses that would exhaust others. We find ourselves to be resilient on every level. This adaptability allows us to lead a rich, broad, adventurous life.

The Principle of Yin and Yang
The "great principle" of yin and yang is a fundamental concept in Chinese philosophy and in the Oriental health care system. The great principle of yin and yang was developed more than 3,000 years ago by great sages and scholars.
Yin and yang are the two opposing components of one integrated whole. These two opposing forces are totally interdependent, interacting constantly so as to maintain the normality and integrity of the whole. Each in turn tends to dominate over the other, but no total dominance is permanent. No matter how dominating one side appears, eventually the other will take its turn as the dominant force. This interplay of opposing forces establishes the basis of all existence and all change.


Herbs and the Regulation of Yin and Yang
In Chinese tonic herbalism, we utilize the law of yin and yang constantly. Tonic herbs are categorized according to yin and yang. It is the attempt of tonic herbalism to provide yin and yang energy in an appropriate balance so that the individual eventually attains a proper dynamic balance and thus attains radiant health. Thus it is important to discern which balance of yin and yang herbs is appropriate. A person who shows signs of yin deficiency will do well to take more yin herbs while a person who shows signs of yang deficiency should take more yang herbs.
It is our belief that, since yin and yang are always both necessary, both yin and yang herbs should be consumed by everybody. Since yin is by definition cooling, moistening and relaxing, yin deficiency is often characterized by hot conditions, hot feelings, dryness and agitation. Yang, on the other hand, is warming, drying and invigorating. Therefore yang deficiency is characterized by cold feelings and conditions, excessive moistness and a lack of vitality (fatigue).
Chinese tonic herbalism is an adaptogenic system. This relates to the concept that the body-mind is naturally and innately self-regulatory. Human neurological and endocrine functions have evolved over millions of years as the primary human regulatory systems designed by nature to maintain homeostasis (functional balance), even under an enormous variety of stressful conditions, thus allowing the whole system to survive and even thrive.

 

[mlb]

Sorry rcharlton this is so long but it is worth reading.

Chinese medicine does not treat illness. It treats the whole body to enable it to function normally without disease.

I have and my family has been successfully treated (for a range of complaints - some that western medicine could not cure) with herbs by our Chinese doctor here in Melbourne. Dr. Chen has been our family doctor for the last 20 years.

I am glad that you find your white tea comforting. Did you know that Chinese teas have different properties? White tea is very good for colds as well. There are others you only drink after a meal as they help dissolve the fat, etc... Like medicine, Chinese teas are not to be drunk as if it was water but in small doses (the chinese cups are tiny).

Ah... I forgot the bit about acupuncture. Acupuncture is only effective if your mind is open to it. In other words if your body is tense and you are uptight, you will not respond to it. I have been refused by my doctor an acupuncture session because of this.

I guess it is like doctors giving up on someone who doesn't have the will to live. Whatever they do, wont work because the person is not receptive.

Anna

 

[rcharlton]

How are the herbs selected and mixed by a registered, certified Traditional Chinese Medical Practitioner - on what basis? If there is a recipe for ALS patients - from where is it derived? Have there been follow ups with previous PALS to determine its effectiveness?

How many ALS patients has your Chinese Medical Practitioner treated? What follow up has he done to determine the effectiveness of his treatment? Does he have case studies?

Hi Anna,

Thanks for the info, but what about my original questions - as above?

 

[mlb]

The answer is actually in my posts to you. ALS is an illness. Chinese Medicine does not treat illness. It treats the body.

Anna

 

[rcharlton]

Hi Anna,

Just playing devil's advocate here - but how does a Chinese Medical Practitioner know what herbs the body of a PALS needs - as opposed to someone who has cancer - or is it the same herbs for everyone?

I mean he isn't just making this stuff up - so how does he determine which herbs a particular body needs - and on what is this based?

Have you asked your pracitioner if he has treated the bodies of other PALS? Has he had any success with these treatments?

 

[mlb]

I don't think you have read anything that I have posted. I have misunderstood your motives. BUT here for the benefit of others who unlike yourself want genuinely to understand the workings of this anciient form of healing I am pasting an explanation of how herbs are selected"

"Chinese herbs are selected and combined in formulas based on principles that have no relation whatsoever to bio-chemistry. The vast majority of herbal treatments use formulas containing four or more herbs. Only a few herbs are used by themselves alone. There are several reasons for this.

To affect related secondary aspects of the illness.

To prevent the formula from causing side effects or illness by balancing it’s effects.

To strengthen the effect on the pathology.

One commonly used format or template for designing herbal formulas is based on the monarchical form of government. At the top is the king or emperor. Next are the ministers or deputies. Last are the assistants or adjutants. There is one special role assistant - that of guide or messenger herb. A memory trick to remember this template is to consider it as radio station KMAG.

Any herb can fill any of these roles. Which role depends on which herbal formula the herb is used in. They roles work together in these ways:

King Herb - The herb which is directed to and has the strongest effect on the most important imbalance/pathology

Minister Herb - This herb is directed to the main imbalance/pathology and to the secondary imbalance/pathology

Assistant Herb - there are three types:

1) Helpful Assistant - strengthens the effect of the King
2) Corrective Assistant - reduces or eliminates the harsh or toxic effects of the King and/or Minister herbs
3) Opposing Assistant - decreases the effect of the King. This role is mostly used for complex combinations of imbalances/pathologies.
Guide - Envoy - Messenger Herb - focuses actions of the other herbs on a particular organ, channel or region of the body.

The KMAG template is presently the dominant method of designing a formula but several others have been very important and are in common use today. Chinese herbs are selected for use in a formula by any single characteristic or combination of all characteristics.

HERB TEMPERATURE
HOT WARM NEUTRAL COOL COLD

5 ELEMENT TASTE OF THE HERB
WATER WOOD FIRE EARTH METAL
SALTY SOUR BITTER SWEET SPICY

DIRECTION OF THE HERB
UP DOWN OUTWARD INWARD

CHANNELS WHICH THE HERB ENTERS
When taken internally the herb's properties enter channels affecting the connected organs and regions of the body.


HERB ENERGETICS by Category of Effect on Qi


DIAPHORETICS RELEASE THE EXTERIOR
ANTI-PYRETICS CLEAR HEAT
PURGATIVES DRAIN DOWNWARD
No Translation HARMONIZING
MOSTURIZING MOISTEN DRYNESS
No Translation WARM THE INTERIOR
STRENGTHEN TONIFYING, NOURISHING
DIGESTIVE REGULATE QI of MIDDLE
BLOOD REGULATING MOVE COAGULATED BLOOD
BLOOD REGULATING STOP BLEEDING
ASTRINGENT STABILIZE & CONTAIN
SEDATIVE CALM the SHEN
ANTI-CONVULSANT ELIMINATE WIND
No Translation ELIMINATE PHLEGM
RESUCITATING OPEN the SENSES

There are two objectives of this section. The first is to introduce the lay person to Chinese Herbology. The second is to demonstrate the complexity of the formulas. After even this cursory study it will be apparent that a lay person should consult a professional before using Chinese medicinal herbs. "

I hope you understand the meaning of treating the "whole body" as opposed to treating an illness.

The way western medicine works is somewhat like this:

You go to the doctor because you feel weak, have sleepless nights, are shaking, lose weight, etc...

The doctor orders some blood tests which come back indicating that you have an overactive/underactive thyroid.

The doctor sends you to an endocrinologist. The endocrinologist orders a scan that confirms the blood test result.

The endocrinologist will order further invasive procedures to see if he can improve the function of your thyroid (he knows that it wont work and tells you so but still orders the procedure).

Then, because this failed, he advises you to have an operation to remove the thyroid. This means that you will be on tablets for the rest of your life. The tablets of course are to replace the function of the thyroid... which actually makes you wonder why remove it in the first place?

The cost? Quite a bit I imagine.

On the other hand....

The Chinese Doctor will listen to your blood flow which he does by putting his fingers on the inside left of your wrist then to the right wrist. He will check your tongue, your eyes, and your overall look. He will listen to your heart (with a stethoscope), feel your hands for heat or cold to see where the problem lies. He will prescribe herbal medicine according to his findings (as explained above).

Nothing has been removed but you are well on the way to recovery. No tablets and no operation.

The cost? AUD35.00 all inclusive (Visit & herbs). The Canadian dollar is almost on par with the Australian so no need to convert it.

I am not selling you anything except some wisdom. Up to you to help yourself. God has sent you a ship to rescue you from drowning when you asked for His help but you didn't accept the ride because you expected a miracle... remember that joke? Only it is not a joke.

Anna

 

[Meg1]

rcharlton --

Here's your answer in a nutshell:
It's basically a religion. Chinese medicine only works if you believe. If you don't believe, it doesn't work.

Real medicine, OTOH, works whether you believe or not.

(Translation of pages of gobbledy goop provided free of charge.)

Meg