02 or no 02?!

Status
Not open for further replies.
If it is his wish and he is OK with hospital, I think you should do it. They might just be able to uncover some other underlying issue causing his distress. Just my opinion.
 
Ninja, I so agree that we support and enable their choices.

Just make sure his choices are made with full information.

Does he have use of his hands?
Is he having saliva issues?

If you have read other threads here, it can take weeks to become accustomed to the bipap machine and mask (and may take trial and error to get the right mask).
If he has a lot of saliva and no use of his hands this is going to be really difficult. I'm so sorry I don't remember exactly where he is at and so have to ask.

I'm all for bipap - but if the PALS is nearing the end and has little functionality and high fatigue, it may not be an easy process at all.

He does need all sides of the situation explained so he can make an informed decision on this.
 
my PALS has no use of his hands/arms/trunk/legs/feet, neck and head are okay. There are no saliva issues right now.
He was hungry today but couldn't open his mouth past 1cm to get anything in there; first time this has happened. Maybe spasticity in the jaw?

RT said no congestion sounds, low grade fever (38.2) and unsure what is going on. He is having tremors (looks like bad chills/not clonus) and not complaining of being too hot or too cold. Rash went away with the benedryl. Not sure what is going on.

I too am worried that he wont easily get accustomed to the bipap so easily at this point. I'm waiting to hear back from a few ppl if we can bypass the hospital/intake program for the bipap and I'm hoping they come back with good news.

RT started him on 2L O2 and his tremors stopped, colour got better, he said he felt better and O2 sats went from 82 to 90 right away.
I'm glad he is a bit more comfortable now and the dr will be by tomorrow to look at him again, check for infection/pneumonia and see if we should continue with O2 as needed or get the bipap. I asked my PALS again about bipap, not even a few hrs later and he went back to "not right now, maybe down the road". I think it is because he is getting nervous about this trip to the ICU.
 
Ninja, I know you are totally supporting his wishes. I meant that if he doesn't want an ICU stay, you would be his advocate in that respect as well.

But you say you tried and it didn't work out, and I don't know anything about how things work in Vancouver. I guess it's late in the game, but for others who might read this in future, secondwindcpap does ship BiPAPs internationally, if you get an rx from any doc -- doesn't have to be your neuro.

So I guess you go back to him and he has that choice. [edit: our posts crossed, so he took a right turn, very understandable]. As Nikki says, if there is an underlying cause for the O2 drop, perhaps they will find it there [or further outpatient testing will reveal it]. And it is true that there are several treatable possibilities.

Decompensation is where the person with ALS takes in so little air over a period of time that their lungs lose the ability to hold it and biochemically do the exchange of CO2 and O2 even if a machine pushes it, often with pneumonia and/or lung collapse. So, there is a set point where if someone waits too long to do BiPAP, it may not work well. From what you say, though, that may not be the case with your husband at all.

Keep us posted -- anything we can do.

Best,
Laurie
 
While the use of 02 for PALS is not considered first line treatment you also must keep in mind ALS does not give us a free pass on other morbidities. Most PALS I know tend to live around the low 90s as far as 02 sats. When you drop into the 80 the medical community jumps to 02. The issue with this is the 02 just masks the buildup of C02. The bipap increases the volume of air going in and out of the lungs. Barring no issue with gas exchange this will bring him up to the mid 90s. If he also has copd asthma, or some sort of infection going on, then by all means use oxygen in conjunction with bipap. My stellar 150 actually has an 02 port on the back for just this sort of case. I would get him in to your clinic to be seen by an RT with ALS experience.
Vincent
 
No other breathing issues like asthma or copd.
There might be an infection going on, hard to say, should know more tomorrow (hopefully).
Such fatigue, he can't even keep his eyes open and he is usually so alert all the time (never naps).

Will see if I can get a bipap without going to the ICU and if not, I leave that to my PALS as to what he wants to do. Just not sure if he is thinking clearly right now.

I hate this beast...no mercy.
 
Last edited:
As his CO2 builds up, especially if he is receiving O2, he will get more and more sleepy and maybe he will have headaches too.

I'm so sorry - I have another CALS here in Australia with similar issues - sent home from hospital on O2 and waiting waiting for a call to even start a sleep study before they will consider bipap prescription. It is so frustrating.

Thinking of you xxx
 
Well pneumonia seems to be the culprit. We are told once that clears up (hopefully does) then he can go off the O2. Hopefully in 3 days things will turn around.
 
Ninja, I’m glad the culprit has been identified. I wish your PALS a successful recovery, comfort, and some better days ahead.

When this current scary episode is resolved, I recommend you and your PALS have a frank discussion about the following:

1. BiPAP vs no BiPAP.

2. If BiPAP, then tracheostomy vs no trach in the future (realizing that in some cases, tracheostomy needs to be done emergently).

3. Whether to treat future infections if this sort of thing happens again vs not treating and going the hospice route.

Recognize that surviving an episode of pneumonia conveys a higher risk of getting pneumonia again in the future, so it’s good to know his wishes and be prepared.
 
Thanks for your kind words. I hope it clears easily.

BiPAP has not been taken off the table.

Trach was previously discussed and is not in the cards. Also discussed treating infections with antibiotics and he was in favour of this also.

Unfortunately, I’m sure if when/we get over this pneumonia we will fall right back into the same issues.
 
So difficult Ninja, I hope he recovers. While we discuss the issues, strategies and dangers with you, he is making the decisions and you are doing a wonderful job of advocating for his wishes. Being on O2 may not help clear the pneumonia, but I know you can only do so much. hugs to you
 
Thank you.

Hopefully the antibiotics will do the trick!
The O2 is to help his body fight the pneumonia, feel better and keep the organs in good shape.
 
Breathing seems to be getting better and maybe slower, bp is a bit lower, hr is higher, anxiety is higher, and my PALS is super tired/weak today (can't keep his eyes open). Not sure if it is the infection or the increase in CO2 that is causing the sleepiness. At least he nods that he isn't in pain.
 
Thanks for the update. I hope you can spend lots of time just being with him and reassuring him that he is loved. xxx
 
Thanks Tillie. He is definitely loved. I'm not sure if he is being clingy or needy...asking for something (repetitive things) every 5 minutes it seems during the day and he lets me sleep a good number of hours and then calls for me first thing in the morning to start all over again.

Also, he seems to be hearing and seeing a few things that aren't there. I'm reassuring him, telling him it is alright, etc.
He says he feels better than yesterday but is just as week/tired. Hasn't eaten in 5 days. Little sips of water and pineapple juice here and there.

Super slow breaths last night (for him, very slow)...every 6 seconds (normally every 1 second) and today HR is 115 and breaths are quick again. BP is normal.

I don't know how long this is going to go on for. Not sure he will come back from this. I'm not sure it was all the pneumonia to blame but rather a bout of progression all at one maybe?! Lost his speech in the last few days, can't project sounds even very well/like a whisper, can't sip out of a straw anymore, can't keep his eyes open.

Any thoughts what I should be expecting here?

thanks,
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top