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rocmg

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hi folks... just wanted to do a little poll of sorts. if you started with bulbar symptoms, when did you feel limb weakness? was it always present, along with speech issues, or did it come along after and come on strong?

my mum has weakness in her arms but is still fully functional. i'm wondering if this weakness means her progression is fast. she's felt this way for a couple months.
 
Hi, I'll go first. My bulbar symptoms started in July of 07 and up until the last few months I had no limb problems at all. Only in the last few months have I noticed that my right hand has trouble (not really bad, but noticeable to me) doing things like writing, turning keys, buttoning. It is still strong and I can lift and carry things with it but the fine movements can be a problem. It is not always there, if it is cold it is worse. Also my left foot doesn't want to work the way it should, it feels floppy/flappy when I walk. Haven't tripped yet but I'm careful.
 
Hi ... bulbar symptoms started March 2006.
I noticed fasics on web between thumb and index finger in fall 2007, but was not aware of weakness.
By summer/fall 2008, noticed weakness in both hands, arms and left leg.
2009, pronounced weakness in left hand, both thumbs, moderate weakness right hand and left leg. Still can (mostly) function with alternate ways to do things. (Turn key with knuckles, not fingertips, kitchen gadgets to open pop-tops, etc.)

Don't think weakness in arms means your mom's progression is faster. The limb weakness I find is steadily increasing. But it's hard to measure, because I keep learning new ways to do things, so I "function" almost at 80% of normal, but left hand is probably at 20-30% of normal strength, dexterity. Like Barry, I can still carry slightly heavy things with left hand ... it's the fine movements that are lost.

I think my limb progression is a little faster than my bulbar progression. Took almost exactly 3 years to lose speech completely, but still can swallow some things (meds by mouth, milkshakes, cookies :)).

My concern is with lungs, not limbs. Went from FVC of 78% in June 2008 to 57% in March 2009. At that rate of decline, I figure I've got another year till it gets down in the 20s.
 
My husband started with both bulbar and hand/limb issues. There just doesn't seem to be rhyme or reason with ALS. Symptoms started late '05. He still has his voice, but he is so very hard to understand most of the time and is learning about the Dynavox device.

Arms and hands are atrophied, shoulders are now going. But he is still walking.

He wishes things were reversed, as he has always been one to talk non-stop!
 
Hello Rosheen,

How have you been? To be honest with you........ i'm not sure what came first. I first started having problems with my left knee about 6 years ago. Some DRS say it's due to ALS, some say it's not.

I had x-rays of left knee, which were perfectly normal. My current DR says it's due to the way I walk......which is due to weakend leg muscles, which would be the ALS.

Other then that, my first noticable symptom would be my voice changed, from a deep voice to a very deep voice. Then 4 months later the hoarsness set in. After about another 3 months, the slurred speech. It was so subtle that no one noticed but me. About 6 months down the road, family members noticed. 6 months after everyone noticed.

So, what came first? I'm not sure. But I would say bulbar area is the worst. I started taking baclofen a few months ago, 30mg a day. it rendered me unintelligible. I then cut it back to 20mg a day, now i'm understandable again......most of the time.:grin:
 
Hi Rocmg, my Dad started showing Bulbar symptoms in February 2007. It started with slurred speech but before that he had inappropriate emotional outbursts dating back as far as April 2006. He was diagnosed in August 2008 and by October he had a drop foot and limb weakness. Now he has two drop feet, walks with a can with difficulty, has fallen a few times and has muscle loss in his hands and trouble with buttons but now everyday. He also cannot stand in the shower anymore and has a bench to sit on. I find his progression to be rather fast... too fast for me anyway.

Unlike CJ's husband, my Dad would rather retain the ability to walk than talk. He was never a big talker. His speech is almost completely unintelligible now but he soldiers on and makes the most of every day. Today he tended to his magnificent plants, which bring him so much joy.

My best to you and your sweet Mum :)
 
My Dad started having coughing problems in Feb of 08. It took a year to figure out his diagnosis. Once he realized what was going on he could attribute other symptoms such as hand weakness that he previously had attributed to an old football injury and shoulder weakness which he attributed to mild degenerative disc disease that were going on prior to Feb 08. So it is hard to say what came first except the swallowing impacted his functioning and was noticed first.

My Dad is still ambulatory but his endurance is poor. He has difficult with fine motor control and hand strength. He has an AFO for his right foot, feeding tube and bipap. His voice is very hoarse and he has poor breath support even for short sentences.

Tonight he won the round of Texas Hold'em so so he also has my five bucks! :-D

He seemed to be changing quickly prior to the feeding tube and bipap so I am hoping he has hit a plateau of endless sorts. Otherwise he is managing one day at a time.
 
Since the first day that this disease started to affect me I have thought of how lucky that I am that I can still walk. I have always been more of a do'er than a talker so it works for me (sort of) but of course now that I can't talk I find that I want to talk more. I guess that's always the way, you always want what you can't have. I have to remember to never take anything for granted because you will miss it when its gone.

We went for a walk today on a new boardwalk that we have around a small lake and wetland in our town and I flipflopped my way around. It was very nice and good to get some fresh air and exercise. I'm going to keep doing it as long as I can and if I can't walk it I'll wheel it!

I know that it's sometimes hard to look at the bright side of things but I'm doing what I can to keep positive and everone here is a great help to me in doing that. Besides, I get to talk here!
 
hello again... thanks for all your replies.

mum had a bad fall today --- she was getting up from her knees and tried to push up but the strength just wasn't there so she fell back and banged her head rather badly. it was terrifying. it's hard for her to realise the same strength isn't there as was there before. but i don't want any more of these "learning the hard way" incidents.. at the same time, i want to to keep her confidence in doing all the things she was able before MND. she has no fasics on her legs yet, but they are pretty obvious on her arms, shoulders and hands. her speech was really good today -- she was talking the way she normally talked with a cold, so that was nice. of course any progression is too fast, but i'm hoping a praying for a plateau also.
 
My concern is with lungs, not limbs. Went from FVC of 78% in June 2008 to 57% in March 2009. At that rate of decline, I figure I've got another year till it gets down in the 20s.


beth -- would you consider the diaphragm pacing unit that was being tried out in the US these last couple years?

I'm wondering what happens in a situation where you can still walk and do things, but the lungs aren't quite what they used to be... if you had chosen not to vent, would your perspective be changed?
 
rocmg ... So sorry about your mum's fall. I hope she recovers quickly and gets her confidence back. I think the reason it's so hard for so many of us to grasp what's happening to our bodies is because it doesn't feel like anything's happening to our bodies most of the time. The fasics are a hint, but we just don't feel many of them. I do get muscle aches and cramps, but they don't last too long (yet). So I still feel "normal," except for speech and swallowing. When I had a broken foot, I KNEW I couldn't navigate without a crutch because I couldn't walk on that leg at all ... but I don't get that kind of feedback from my body with ALS ... until I fall over on my head.

I try to remember ... no quick moves, use the walker, slow down, pay attention. But it's so hard to keep that kind of awareness on the front burner. Tell your mum to hang in there. It sounds like she's doing everything right.

Barry ... It IS nice to be able to "talk" on this forum, isn't it, and be part of a conversation.
 
I would definitely consider the diaphragm pacing. I would also choose a trache ... IF ... I had speech and 24/7 family care. But I have neither of those, and do not want to be in a nursing home where I am dependent upon underpaid and overworked staff to provide my every need.

It's hard enough communicating with my Light/Writer or DynaVox ... they are wonderful gadgets, but even my nearest and dearest get a little impatient waiting while I type, and spend a lot of energy guessing what I'm trying to say. I'm sure that nursing home staff are worked pretty hard and will not have time to indulge someone who can't communicate easily or quickly. But I think that's the only mechanical assistance I would not accept. Other than that, I'll try anything ! :)
 
rocmg, I'm sorry about your mum's fall, hopefully it was just one of those things that can happen, and won't become more of a problem.

I"m just now reading this thread for the first time, so I will attempt to answer your original question.

I received a diagnosis of PBP July 08. At first I didn't really understand t the significance of it, I even posted on this forum that my neurologist had stopped short of actually diagnosing me .... then.... her report from my visit came in the mail, and after reading it I realized that what she'd actually stopped short of was saying to me was that it would progress beyond the bulbar region. When she was talking to us in person, she was so gentle about it, kept saying how it "probably" was ALS, but it was too early to tell, she had tears in her eyes at one point, and that empathetic quality is, I think, pretty rare to run across in a neurologist! .... So, then this report comes in the mail, and its all just typed out in black and white ( because it obviously was written to inform my other doctors of what had been found) I just stared at the paper for the longest time. She said in the report how she'd spent over 40 minutes counseling us about it. Which she did, and I heard her, but apparently I excel at Denial!

Here, as far as I can tell, is the history.

The winter of 05/06 I started getting severe muscle spasms in my legs, & occasionally my abdomen. The occurred most frequently when I would go to bed after working a trip. I assumed it had something to do with flying, although, I'd been flying for many years, and had not had problems with them before. They were definitely worse after working though, so it just seemed to follow that there was a cause and effect. I "googled" it, and what popped up said that charlie horses usually were nothing to worry about, so, simply put, I didn't.

By spring of 06 I was battling increasing fatigue, I chalked it up to jet lag, and submitted a transfer request to come back to domestic flying. It took me the longest time to realize after I was back to keeping normal hours that it had done nothing to help with the fatigue; that it wasn't jet lag causing me to be so tired. I'd go to work in the afternoon, fly to somewhere on the west coast, fall into bed, get up still exhausted, fly back to the east coast, and pretty much lay on the couch until it was bedtime again. I wasn't sleepy, just fatigued. I was working progressively less and less. It would literally take me 4 days to recover from a 2 day trip.

I was still getting the cramps. I'd had dry eye for a while, but, again, I had a very dry workplace environment. By late May or early June I also had dry mouth, I would have these awful white stringy things in my mouth when I'd wake up in the morning. So, I eventually went to my GP, he tested me for diabetes, and Sjögren’s syndrome. Everything came back normal.

Somewhere around July or August 06 I started noticing something weird going on with my fingers of my right hand, when I would twist open the cap of one of those little mini liquor bottles on the plane, my fingers would kind of get stuck.

It was not until the fall of 06 that I started going to the doctor in earnest about any of this. But the leg cramps always got dismissed (until I saw my neurologist at Hopkins for the first time)

Here's a point of interest that I missed for the longest time: People ~ even doctors ~ hear what they are expecting to hear. When I started going to the doctor, trying to sort out the fatigue, etc, I would tell them about my fingers. What they actually heard was a middle aged woman with a history of osteoarthritis in her spine, saying her joints in her fingers were stiff. In actuality, what I was feeling was the spasticity, like I was encountering resistance such as an elastic band around my fingers. So, the doctors are hearing one thing, and I'm describing another, but don't I don't grasp that they're not getting it.

Anyway, back to the chronology: In the late autumn of 06 I started having voice problems. Especially on the phone, people would either ask if they woke me, or if I was getting sick. They noticed it way before I was aware of it. I also had some breathing sensation strangeness going on, which was originally treated as asthma, and then the thinking was the asthma meds were maybe causing the voice problems. As the meds weren't helping, I went off of it (Advair) and it made no difference one way or the other.

By January of 07 I was being seen by a rheumatologist, and he thought maybe it was Sjögren’s, even though by then all antibody tests for everything had been repeated and repeated and always were negative. ( I think all in all I maybe had the various antibody tests done no less than 6 times, perhaps more).

So, one of the most common medications for Sjögren’s is Plaquenil, I was started on this, and what got better were my leg cramps (it is a quinine drug) I was also put on prednisone, and eventually methotrexate. Nothing made a difference with my voice or with the fatigue, but I didn't get cramps (and no one but me seemed to care about them anyhow)

By autumn of 07 I finally saw a specialist who'd primary concern was the voice and throat. She took one look at my vocal cords, said there was atrophy (first time ever this was mentioned) and wanted to do an EMG (which I'd never heard of) The EMG came back with the pattern of active and chronic denervation, reinnervation, but no mention of PBP or other forms of MND were made. Instead, I got to have the MG panels and lyme tests run again ~ why not, right?

By winter 07/08 I started having some problems connected with eating. I would get spasms when chewing, things like that. It was then, in December of 07, that I remember being on the phone with my laryngologist, and her first bringing up cranial nerves, the 9th and 10th in specific. I'd never even thought one way or the other about which nerves controlled the muscles in my throat before. I'd never heard the terminology "bulbar" anything! She didn't allude to it either, but did say she thought specific cranial nerves were what were causing my problems.

In January of 08, my local doctors decided I needed to go to Hopkins or Mayo.

I think it was May I first saw my neuro there. I also had my first (mild) case of aspiration pneumonia around then. I'd had a modified swallow study done, and it revealed I had weakness in every part of the eating/swallowing process. I was so surprised. I just was not that aware.

In June of 08 I had trouble opening and closing an airplane door while doing my annual qualification training for the FAA. This training is done in a large facility, and there are actual aircraft doors and exit windows for every plane we would work, in there. ~ pilots get really cool simulators, plus the doors windows and emergency equipment, but flight attendants just get doors, windows, and emergency equipment (oh well) This door that I almost failed opening, was the same exact door I'd opened and closed for at least 6 previous years. I even asked one of the instructors if perhaps changes had been made to them from the previous year, and she said it was the same door since when we first started flying that style aircraft, which I think was 2001 or 2002. Other doors gave me some trouble, but this one was my wake-up call. I knew my arms were weak. The entire rest of training I could hardly even concentrate, because I kept thinking that if I had the PBP (at this point my diagnosis was only "possible" PBP ) it was advancing beyond the bubar region.


So, a couple of weeks later, I received the PBP diagnosis, then about a month after that, I started noticing some leg weakness.

Right now, from my perspective, most of the progression is going on in my legs, and to a lesser extent my arms, but its really so hard to tell. You would think it wouldn't be. You'd think a person would just "know", but I don't. I think that with my leg weakness, and my arms, I can tell easier, because the bulbar stuff is just sneakier. How is a person going to know if their epiglottis is closing at the right moment, or tight enough? But that same person (me) has no trouble noticing when she can't raise up on her toes to reach something off of a shelf. Does this make sense?
 
rose... you had been given quite a run around.

An American doctor told me they tend to over-investigate in the united states, whereas in the UK they under-investigate... probably something to do with the NHS and money (trying to get done with the patient ASAP.)

Even after my mum's two diagnoses of bulbar-ALS in the UK, the American doctor said he could be 99% sure it was ALS although he would not rule out the possibility of a neuromuscular junction disease. But we know what we're dealing with, I'm not in denial at all, although I allow mum to wander over into that territory every now and again since that is where she is happiest.
 
rocmg, I just read about your Mum's fall. How is she doing now? I am so sorry that she bumped her head and I hope she is alright. My Dad had a bad fall when we were all down in Florida and it was just heart breaking so I know how you feel. You are often in my thoughts.
 
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