Is it possible to exchange a new power chair with Numotion???

[CarolSue]

I've probably got less than a quarter or half a mile on my power chair. Its a front wheel drive F3 Corpus with tilt/recline/leg extension and lift. I'm used to a pronto that I used while waiting for my new chair. The pronto is a mid wheel and I love the way it handles. I've been trying to use F3 around the house and its just not working out. My rooms are just too small. It doesn't turn as tight and just has a larger foot print overall.

My problem is after contacting the salesman he wants me to continue to try to "get used to it" as it is a really "big deal" to exchange one. He said since he was able to get me the lift at NO CHARGE that Numotion would not be inclined to provide me with a different chair with another free lift. That I would almost certainly be charged the $1500 for a feature that was free on the chair I just received. He also mentioned the fact that it was "custom made". If custom means he held a tape measure up in front of my chest and eye balled it and then measured the length from my knee to floor.... then I guess it was made specifically for me

One of the problems I have with this is that the salesman met us at a clinic visit. We were never offered a chance to try a front wheel chair out before it was ordered. He told us that the front wheel F3 is what they are now selling and believe it to be the best chair. I figured that since I was already used to maneuvering a power chair around the house that this new one would be no different. He told me how much better it was than a mid wheel power chair. But unfortunately for me it is ALOT different. There are parts of my house that I have to go in reverse to get to. The guy who delivered the chair said it could be returned for reason if I'm unhappy. Salesman, however, acts like he doesn't want to do it.

Could be that if I contact him again maybe he will see that I'm serious and this isn't a frivolous exchange. I mean I will practically be living in this chair...I think I ought to be 100% satisfied.

Has anyone else ever exchanged a new chair? Can it be done? I just get this feeling that I'm going to have to fight for this.

I just get the feeling that I'm going to have to fight for this.

Carol Sue

 

[lgelb]

You will [have to fight], most likely.

When you were measured for the chair, did anyone ask about the dimensions of your home? The fact that you have to reverse to get to certain places has to be your main lever. Part of his brief in the evaluation is to ask about setting. I take it you did sign the delivery slip, though. In truth, these chairs are not usually exchangeable once that happens.

Like anything else, you may have to go up several levels. If the salesperson doesn't meet your needs (try him again, let him know you tried to make it work), go up to the branch manager, district manager, regional director and national headquarters (which has its own call center for complaints). Use the ALS dx with everyone (this also supports that ultimately a caregiver may be driving and the "reverse" thing is going to be a lot harder) and emphasize it's a terminal disease and so you were busy with other issues rather than doing wheelchair research, for which you trusted Numotion.

 

[swalker]

I don't know if Numotion will take your chair back or not. All you can do is ask and fight for it. I am sure they will not want to take it back, but perhaps with enough of a fight you can get them to take it back.

It is critically important that you wind up with the chair that works for you. Only you know how if feels to drive it in your house.

I can understand why the salesman believes in Permobil and a front wheel drive chair. I love mine (I have a C500). However, the F3 may not work for you and if it does not work for you, then it simply is not the "best".

I would be far happier in an F3 (or preferably an F5) rather than a Pronto. But that is me. You need to get what works for you.

You will be able to manoeuvre better in tight spaces as you use the wheelchair more. But, there is the possibility that the geometry of the wheelchair simply will not fit in/through all the essential tight your house.

Steve

 

[CarolSue]

Oh I wouldn't consider the pronto for long term. It was loaned to us by a friend of the family for the short term while waiting on my chair to be ordered. I want a Permobil ...but I want one that is mid wheel, I think it is the M300. I will contact him via email again tomorrow and see if I can move this forward. I am needing the chair for more than just going to the mall these days. The walker is just downright dangerous. I had my fifth fall two weeks ago, since being diagnosed last January. I get depressed every time I get in the power chair....because it takes so much effort to get around, I just want to get back on the rollator. I am so angry at myself for not doing my own research and trusting this guy. I'm sure Numotion makes more $$$$ on the front wheel F3 than the M300. One last thing when I signed and took delivery, the guy that brought the chair was aware that I was not real happy with it and he kept saying it will just take some getting used to. He also said when doing all the signing...for any reason you are not satisfied you can return thechair. But when I got the paperwork back out to see about a return when I could see it wasn't working for me, I saw where it said no returns and he had checked that entry acknowledging that I knew it couldn't be returned. Did he lie about the return policy?? I guess I'm getting ready to find out. One last thing that may help...or not....when I first got in the chair, my back wouldn't fit comfortably in the back of the chair with those inserts in the sides of the chair. He had to remove them for me to lean all the way back into the curved back. Does that make sense?

 

[CarolSue]

One last thing...they also slipped in the anterior lift without asking if I wanted it. Then when it was delivered I had to sign a form saying if my insurance denied it I would have to pay nearly $1000 for it.

 

[lgelb]

Yes, the M300 is a mid-wheel chair and there are some threads on it here. Yes, the F3 is newer and probably comped better.

The "wings" on the back should have been sized to you as part of the back overall.

There is no return clause on the delivery form, was never going to be, and he shouldn't have told you that there is one.

Re the anterior tilt, ask your doctor's office or PT (whoever signed off on the order) to forward you their copy. If anterior tilt is not on what they approved, that is a problem.

I'm not picking on you, Carol Sue, but just a reminder to all: get a copy of the order being submitted to your insurance co. before it goes there. I found significant errors in ours and could get them fixed before submittal.

Get a case manager at your plan who knows you in advance of the order. That makes it more likely you can get certain features covered.

Don't let anyone order a chair you haven't demoed in your home.

P/CALS have plenty else to worry about, but the power chair's a big thing. Worry more up front and a lot less down the line.

Carol Sue, let us know how you get on.

 

[swalker]

I think Permobil builds some of the best wheelchairs. It is my brand of choice (I own 2 of them along with a Magic Mobility X4).

I am a believer in the front wheel drive wheelchairs for my lifestyle. If you have read some of my posts about wheeling around, you will find my wheelchair lifestyle is a bit, um, different.

The M300 has a great reputation. I have ridden around in one and I liked it a lot. I like the front wheel drive ones better, but if I needed a mid wheel drive chair, I would look very closely at the M300.

But, I would not buy a wheelchair without spending significant time in it. My minimum would be about 3 hours. That is what I did with the C500 I bought, and it allowed me to have great confidence in my decision. The 1300 miles I have put on it since then have only reinforced that opinion.

So, if you think the M300 is the right chair for you, buy with confidence, but only do so once you have spent some quality time in one that is reasonably well adjusted for you.

Steve

 

[tripete]

Use your ALS association to get them to take it back. They have more influence with the sales rep as they send more business his way. They should be able to make it happen.

I am waiting on my F3, and like Steve think the front wheel drive will best suit my needs. But I was put off that a sales representative was part of the meeting and that i was more or less corralled twoard a product. Thankfully I knew ahead of time what I wanted.

Again, work with your ALS association nurse. They should be able to fight this on your behalf.

 

[chally]

What happened to " the customer is always right"
My guy not only measured me & weight me but also walked my ground on the farm and in the house then we sat down and looked through many catologues. My choice was the frontier V 6 made in Austraila. Like Steve almost all my 1000+ mi. Have been off road stuff. I am happy with my choice and you should be too carol sue.. FIGHT! Good luck. Chally

 

[Diane H]

I was able to get a different chair. I had been very happy with the seating specialist I had worked with to order my first chair so when I needed a new chair twelve years later, I trusted her recommendation. I ended up with a Quantum Edge that lurched to the side and didn't fit in my bathroom or van, It did take a fight but here are my suggestions for handling the situation.

First, don't waste any time in demanding a new chair. The longer you have it the harder it will be to exchange. Second, don't waste time dealing with the salesman or the delivery guy. They have no power in fixing this. Put the responsibility for poorly trained employees on the company. Don't call the company -- put it in writing in an email or letter. Lay out all your complaints beginning with the salesman. Say you now question his training for the job based on several things.
1. If the salesman did not question you on how you would be using the chair- nearly entirely indoors or frequently outdoors, on sidewalks or on rougher terrain, etc., and about the space in your home include this to start.
2. Report that he said that a front wheel drive chair was the best, better than a mid-wheel. You trusted him to be knowledgeable but have since found out that a front wheel drive is recommended for outdoor use on rough terrain, not for someone who will be indoors or on sidewalks. As a result the chair does not work in your home and requires backing into parts of your home. The Invacare Pronto you have as a temporary loaner has no problem maneuvering in your rooms, proving that the F3 Corpus was a completely wrong recommendation.
3. Add that the custom fitting for the chair included only holding a tape measure out in front of your chest and measuring from knee to floor. As a result the lateral supports do not fit you and had to be removed.
4. Include that the anterior tilt to stand was added without your knowledge and that you were not told you might have to pay for it yourself.
5. Say that you are getting no help from the salesman. Being told that you just have to get used to it is ridiculous because having used the Invacare Pronto you know that the right type of chair for indoor use doesn't require that much time or effort.

Next, state emphatically that when you were asked to sign for delivery of the chair you were assured by the delivery man that it could be returned if you were not satisfied. Emphasize that he had told you this but, as you noted later, he had checked the box that said you were aware it could not be returned.

Summarize that the chair does not work in your home and does not fit you. Add your powerful statement "I get depressed every time I get in the power chair....because it takes so much effort to get around, I just want to get back on the rollator (insert the information that a walker is no longer safe and you have fallen five times using it). Don't admit to any self blame, just state that you believed that Numotion was a good company because you were seen by them at the ALS Clinic, but are extremely unhappy with the service you received. Finish with saying you want them to exchange the chair for a mid-wheel drive Permobil after a properly done evaluation of your needs now and in the future, correct measuring, and time to test the replacement chair in your home and usual environment before signing for receipt of the chair. This needs to be done at no further cost to you.

Finish by saying that you are sending a copy of this letter to the ALS Clinic. You hope that the problem can be resolved quickly and you don't want other patients to have the kind of experience you have had with Numotion.

 

[affected]

Diane thank you - your reply has laid everything out so clearly for CarolSue, she can literally copy and paste and more than half the letter is done. That is an incredible help.

 

[swalker]

Carol Sue, I would do exactly what Diane recommended.

Wow, Diane, thanks for your thorough reply. I think it is very valuable.

Steve

 

[KimT]

I'm already having trouble with my chair and it isn't even ordered. The representative who came out to measure me really didn't give me any options. I thought that would happen later. His boss called me today to confirm that I was willing to pay $3,000 for elevation feature and another $1,900 for attendant control!!!!!!!!! She said Medicare NEVER pays for either. I questioned her on attendant control.

 

[lgelb]

Not true on attendant control, but you don't need it yet so it can't be documented yet. Anyway, a regular joystick can be moved to the back w/o too much hassle when the time comes.

Traditional Medicare on seat elevation, no. Medicare Advantage and private plans, possibly (I write this knowing you know this, but for other readers' benefit).

 

[JimInVA]

Our Blue Cross/Blue Shield allowed for the power lift option on Darcey's PWC.

Jim