Important question

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nebrhahe53

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When you have deteriorated to the point of going on yourself and near total paralysis, is removing the breathing mask that keeps you alive considered suicide?
 
I would say that if you are choosing to do something with the intent to die that will indeed lead to your death then yes it would be considered suicide but thats just my thought on it.
 
Neil, I will not allow devices to be put on me that will extend my life. So to remove one that is keeping you going is not suicide, no more so than those who choose not to use them. Instead is a choice to allow your body to take its own course.

We suffer more than most people can ever understand. There should be no guilt over not using machines to keep us living longer than our bodies choose to.
 
That's a very personal decision Neil. I don't think it would be appropriate for any of us Pals to judge the decisions of our fellow Pals when this disease progresses to the point you are referencing. I will share this; my advance directive specifically says no invasive ventilation unless I am still mobile and the ventilator would be temporary, say for pneumonia. To me, I see no difference between weaning off the BiPap and choosing not to have invasive ventilation. Spend some time really thinking about that decision Neil. Who knows what each day may bring. We know what each day brings to our bodies, but we can't know what experience we may have with a loved one or friend.

I know how much you are struggling Neil and my prayers for you is that you find comfort and peace with whatever decisions you make.

Vince
 
It is refusing treatment I think like refusing tube feedings or if you had cancer refusing chemo. Doing a terminal wean from a vent is allowed and that is more drastic. I would not consider any of those remotely near suicide. I am sorry you have to ask this. Is your context legal, ethical or religious?
 
No. If it was there'd be a lot more issue 'pulling the plug'.
But if it's a religious question you should probably ask a person of the cloth.
 
No. It is not suicide in either the Western legal sense, the medical sense, or the Catholic doctrine.

Legally and medically, it is very well known and agreed that a patient has the right to refuse treatment at any time. IF you don't want a life-extending therapy, you are not required by law or ethics to keep it. The Catholic church recently cleared this up as well.

The key is understanding what is the causing the death. ALS is the killer. As we all know, the therapies and treatments--including masks, O2, food, water, morphine and anything else--are not going to change the final result, so they are simply to relieve suffering. It is permitted and encouraged to relieve suffering. But it is not required that a patient must keep himself alive at any cost. A terminal patient always has the right to refuse, withdraw, or stop any therapy--even if the result will be death.

The law and the church go even further, to talk about morphine. Morphine is a pain and panic reliever. OF course, we all know that, at a certain dosage, too much morphine is fatal. However, in the case of a terminally ill patient, remember that it is the ALS that is doing the killing. The nurse with the morphine is relieving the pain and panic. Therefore, it is acceptable--with a terminally ill patient--to continue increasing to whatever dose is required to relieve the pain and panic, even past the fatal dosage. The nurses intent is relief.

In the Assisted Suicide movement, they have made a mistake. It is NOT suicide. (Suicide is considered a bad thing, a choice between life and death. But with a terminally ill patient, there is no choice, so there is no suicide. The movement needs to call it what it is: Managing your own death experience.

References available upon request.
 
Neil,your in my thoughts as you go, know to that none of us walk this path alone. You have my strength as you need it, I think we 'er all with ya and love ya. Peace brother chally
 
Definitely not suicide my friend.

My Chris never had a bipap, that choice was not suicide either xxx Mike says it perfectly - ALS is the killer, it is terminal. Acceptance of that, and the decision on what you will do prolong is very personal and the only right is what you feel in your heart.

We love you man, it is your life and your disease path. I wish you so much peace.
 
Neil, Steve was in the same place you are at. He was worried how the dc would be written because it needed to say als. In the end, he chose to walk when he shouldnt, and couldnt really do it. His choice. He did it so he could preserve a bit of dignity and go on his terms.

My heart breqks for you. I think this is a highly personal choice. There is no right or wrong choice. Do what is best for you.
 
Thank you all for your thoughts and answers and thanks mike for your information. Too right about people who aren't in our situation not even remotely understanding what it's like. Most cancers are a walk in the park compared to this.
I've had 2 neurologists at ALS clinics tell me this is the worst disease left to mankind, and I know me well enough to know that if I have an active brain, and no way to communicate with the outside world I'd go insane.
So I think that soon I'll be making that decision, and hope that if there is judgement on the other side it will be tempered by understanding.
 
Don't know the answer, but Peace be with you, brother.
 
Steve, who loved words, to sing, etc was losing his voice quickly. That really mattered to him.

No one here Neil is going to judge you.
 
What a thing to have to contemplate. As Frank says- Peace be with you.
 
Gooseberry, interesting about how you mention Steve and maintaining dignity by walking. I tried that, till I fell for the fifth time. Funny thing was that once I fell through a glass table, once on concrete, and never got more than a scratch or two. Last time I fell I was lying down in bed and tried to reach for something, and fell 2 feet to the floor with my hand, which I can't move, pinned under me. That time I did hurt myself.
I will never forget ( I hope) the bravery, self sacrifice, and caring of the pals and CALS here.
Whenever I hear of someone passing I mourn, but I also am glad they aren't not suffering anymore.
Anyone who really wants to understand bravery should just look at all of you.

My love to all of you


Neil
 
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