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View Full Version : Nutrition in ALS


Maverick
05-10-2009, 12:22 PM
I'm posting a link to a paper I wrote for one of my classes on ALS. It provides kind of a different viewpoint, namely, that medicine and medical research in the States are hopelessly backwards. I don't have the wherewithal to defend the whole thing against somebody with an advanced degree but the references are legit.

Essentially, I think that maximizing the amount of saturated fats relative to polyunsaturates, limiting or chelating iron, and taking supplemental antioxidants, particularly vitamin E, would go a long way in slowing down ALS. These ideas really come from Ray Peat. But the notion that good nutrition can prevent or reverse almost any disease is something I have come across in many books.

Has anyone tried simply changing his diet?

joelc
05-10-2009, 08:15 PM
Maverick, I took out the link to your paper because it did not lead to your paper. If you want to provide a direct link, or post your paper directly we will review its relevance.

joelc
05-10-2009, 09:40 PM
Sorry but that link lead to a login screen that is asking for a user name and password.

BethU
05-10-2009, 10:33 PM
OK ... I bit and checked the source of your ideas. Are you perhaps shilling for Mr. Peat's products and programs?

Are there really people in this world so gullible or desperate that they would shell out $$ for information about a diet and supplements that can "prevent or reverse almost any disease"? (And how do you prove that you have prevented a disease?)

Maverick
05-10-2009, 10:59 PM
Just trying to give credit where credit is due. You know, there are people in the world who actually care and aren't trying to sell you anything. The articles there are free and worth reading.

I fixed the link. Forgive my hyperbole about the importance of diet. But I really think the importance of nutrition in relation to a lot of diseases has been neglected. Sorry if that's offensive somehow.

joelc
05-11-2009, 12:15 AM
I deleted the link because of the following!


Reported Attack Site!


This web site at ?..........com has been reported as an attack site and has been blocked based on your security preferences.


Attack sites try to install programs that steal private information, use your computer to attack others, or damage your system.

Some attack sites intentionally distribute harmful software, but many are compromised without the knowledge or permission of their owners.

Maverick
05-11-2009, 11:13 AM
I'm pretty sure nobody's hijacked my netfiles. The site is . No link this time, paste it into your browser. That's http secure, hosted by uiuc, the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign.

Al
05-11-2009, 12:53 PM
OK mr. Maverick. I took out your site myself this time. You are trying WAY too hard to push this site to be just someone looking to inform. First time posters with a link 99.9% of the time are trying to sell crap. I'll err on the side of caution and keep our site clean. If that's a problem for you, there are other sites that will let you.

AL

Maverick
05-11-2009, 04:54 PM
Did you even go to the link? I'm pasting the text below.

You people are incredible. This will be more or less unreadable but I'll post it just to show you it exists. There is literally not a more innocuous place for me to post a document. I had no idea you could run a forum that prohibits hyperlinking.


Page 1
Reinterpretation of known pathological mechanisms in Amyotrophic Lateral Sclerosis
Background
Amyotrophic lateral sclerosis (ALS) is a progressive neurodegenerative disorder involving the
death of both the upper and lower motor neurons. Victims of ALS gradually lose control of their
skeletal muscles, with the notable exceptions of the sphincter and ocular muscles. The process
is believed to be caused by excitoxicity – that is, the inappropriate depolarization of the motor
neurons, in the absence of conscious attempt at movement. Excitotoxicity results in premature
apoptosis of the motor neurons, with deleterious effects on the muscles they innervate. As a
result of disuse, skeletal muscles atrophy and are susceptible to fasciculation. Late-stage ALS
is thus unmistakable. Patients typically die when the muscles required for respiration fail; this
occurs 2-5 years after diagnosis (NIH, 2009).
Diagnosis of ALS is typically a diagnosis by exclusion. Clinicians must rule out other possible
causes of neurodegeneration or paralysis, such as lead poisoning, non-neuronal myopathy, and
multiple sclerosis. As approximately 20% of ALS cases are classified as familial, having a
family member who suffers from ALS increases the likelihood that ALS symptoms do indeed
indicate ALS. The description of these cases as “familial,” however, should not be interpreted to
mean that they are genetic. Only about 2% of all ALS cases can be attributed to a genetic
defect (Mayo clinic, 2009).
The study of ALS is complicated by the fact that only 2 out of 100,000 or so people will go on to
develop it. It is possible to induce ALS-like symptoms in mice by mutating the SOD1 gene, but
it must be remembered that this mutation is orthologous to only a very, very small proportion of
the human population. Interestingly, SOD1 knockouts do not exhibit the ALS – like symptoms of
the mutant SOD1 mice, and this has led to much speculation about the toxic “gain of function” of
the mutant protein. In recent years, however, focus has shifted from the gene itself towards the
system of which it is a constituent – the cell’s antioxidant defense system.
The Antioxidant Defense System
The function of the antioxidant defense system is to neutralize highly reactive by-products of
respiration, known as reactive oxygen species (ROS).The cell’s principle defense against ROS
is its antioxidant enzymes, superoxide dismutase, catalase, and glutathione peroxidase.
Superoxide dismutase reduces superoxide to hydrogen peroxide, which is further reduced to
water and oxygen (O
2
) by catalase and to water by glutathione peroxidase. Glutathione
peroxidase is itself modified in the process, but is restored by the activity of glutathione
reductase.
The catalytic activity of the antioxidant enzymes might be sufficient, were there an antioxidant
enzyme for every ROS. Such is not the case. One ROS for which the cell has no dedicated
Page 2
enzyme is the hydroxyl radical, create via the catalytic activity of iron in the presence of
superoxide. The hydroxyl radical is neutralized by any of the non-enzymatic antioxidants, such
as vitamins C and E, which readily give up an electron.
Zinc, copper, and selenium are key components of the antioxidant enzymes, and copper
deficiency has been suggested as one cause of neurodegenerative diseases (Hartmann &
Evenson, 1992). Copper is also essential for metabolizing iron, as in the formation of the heme
groups of hemoglobin; thus, a copper deficiency might manifest itself as an excess of iron,
resulting in increased production of ROS via the Fenton reaction. Copper deficiency is known to
cause neurological and other dysfunctions in livestock (Kumar N, Gross JB, & Ahlskog JE) and
has been mistaken for ALS in some human patients (Hartmann & Evenson,1992).
Oxidative Stress
Insufficient activity of the antioxidant defense system, whether due to an excess of ROS or a
deficiency of antioxidant nutrients, results in a state of oxidative stress. Oxidative stress refers
to the general dysfunction that arises when ROS damage cellular proteins and nucleic acids. In
fact, damage by ROS may be the principle cause of protein damage, underlying or superseding
some of the other purported causes. For example, proteins may be damaged via glycosylation,
and this glycosylation is said to be due to abnormally high concentrations of glucose. However,
the same protein damage can be induced much faster by high concentrations of the
polyunsaturated fatty acids (PUFAs) (Fu et. al, 1996). Although the PUFAs are by no means
inactive in the absence of oxygen, they break down into their toxic end products much more
rapidly under the influence of the ROS.
It would then appear that excessive production of ROS is sufficient to explain much of the
pathophysiology that cannot be attributed to some other mischief, such as a toxin or infectious
agent. For this reason “oxidative stress” is becoming an increasingly popular term, and not just
in relation to the neurodegenerative diseases. Heart disease, diabetes, and preeclampsia are
all now associated with oxidative stress, and this association is laying the groundwork for a
unified model of the pathological mechanisms underlying different diseases. Oxidative stress is
associated closely with the mitochondria, and this has led to the idea of a “respiratory defect.”
This term used to be popular in the study of cancer, which can be viewed as approximately the
opposite of ALS: whereas metabolically compromised ALS motor neurons die, metabolically
compromised cancer cells go glycolytic.
Evidence of oxidative damage in ALS is found in conventional markers of oxidative damage to
DNA, proteins, and lipids, all of which are elevated in the neuronal or glial cells of ALS patients.
When ROS interact with the PUFA’s, they generate highly reactive end-products, including
malondialdehyde and 4-hydroxynonal. Like the hydroxyl radical, these end-products have no
enzyme to defuse them, and so they amplify the effects of ROS, causing oxidative damage and
depleting antioxidants, particularly vitamin E. The modification of DNA by ROS and lipid
peroxides could in theory cause permanent mutations and thus manifest itself as aberrant
proteins, but in practice this is prevented by the activation of a DNA repair system, poly(ADP-
ribse)polymerase or PARP. However, PARP activation is energetically expensive, and is
Page 3
associated with cell death in motor neuron cell lines (Robberecht et al., 2000). Moreover, motor
and other neurons in the brains of ALS patients have been shown to express PARP (Kim et al.,
2004). This is consistent with the finding that some 50% of all ALS patients exhibit some
degree of cognitive dysfunction, as opposed to 5% of controls (Ringholz, 2005). This finding is
important, as it indicates that pathology in ALS is systemic, rather than specific to motor
neurons. It is simply the motor neurons that are affected more severely and earlier.
The deleterious effects of ROS are not mediated through PARP activation alone. Before PARP
mediated cell death, ROS damage proteins and may facilitate PARP activation or induce
apoptosis independently of the PARP system. Either way, one of the primary toxic mechanisms
is energy depletion. Damaged proteins must be replaced or repaired, at a high energy cost to
the cell. Protein aggregates, such as lipofuscin (the age pigment) or the amyloid plaques of
Alzheimers, are particularly difficult to deal with. Similar aggregates have been observed in
cells of ALS patients, and these aggregates are ubuiquinated, that is, tagged for degradation.
That the cell will have to make new copies of these proteins represents one additional cost, but
the degradation itself has a cost as well, because ubiquitin binding itself is energy dependent
(Shaw, 2000). Adaptation to the additional energy demand requires greater mitochondrial
output, but this results in a concomitant increase in the production of ROS.
There is also strong evidence to suggest that oxidative damage is instrumental, as opposed to
incidental, in the pathogenesis of ALS, as antioxidant nutrients postpone or prevent
development of the disease. This has been verified in the mouse model of ALS, and
epidemiological data indicate that it is probably true of humans as well (Ascherio et al., 2005).
Vitamin E represents a particularly promising therapy, particularly considering how narrow its
conception and use. In the first place, the function of vitamin E should not be reduced to an
antioxidant even though that is certainly an important function in relation to the oxidative stress
of ALS. Just as the PUFAs have a range of endocrine-like effects, vitamin E probably has
effects mediated through its interaction with other signaling factors (Peat, 2006). In the second
place, vitamin E exists in many forms, of which the most effective has not been determined and
may not have been studied or sold to any significant degree (Chen. et al., 2002, Sen, Khanna, &
Roy, 2004).
At least a couple of retrospective studies have found a protective effect of the PUFAs, as well as
of vitamin E, against the development of ALS (Veldink et al, Okamoto et al, 2007). This is
difficult to reconcile with the finding that PUFAs more or less destroy vitamin E (Valk & Hornstra,
2000) as well as with the explanation of ALS as a respiratory defect, as the PUFA’s have been
shown to be toxic to mitochondria (Hillered & Chan, 2003). It has also been shown that the
PUFA’s are toxic to lymphocytes, and that their toxicity derives in part from their effect of
depolarizing the mitochondrial membrane, independent of ROS production (“The mechanism of
cell death induced by this oil emulsion was characterized by mitochondrial membrane
depolarization and neutral lipid accumulation but did not alter reactive oxygen species
production.” Cury-Boaventura et al., 2006). Particularly troubling is the ability of the PUFAs to
inhibit glutamate reuptake by neurons, and, to a lesser extent, astrocytes (Yu, Chan, &
Fishman, 1986). Thus, the PUFAs can be implicated in both oxidative stress and glutamate
excitotoxicity, the two main pathological mechanisms central to ALS. Given the many toxic
Page 4
effects of the PUFA’s, especially on the nervous system, reports of a protective effect should be
approached with skepticism.
Mitochondria and Energy Production
Central to an understanding of oxidative stress is an understanding of the source of ROS, the
mitochondria. According to the classical model, mitochondria are composed of an outer
membrane, permeable to small molecules, and an inner membrane, folded into numerous
cristae, that is relatively impermeable (although it is permeable to Ca
2+
). Inside the matrix, the
citric acid cycle transforms the bond energy found in glucose or fatty or amino acids, resulting in
the formation of high-energy electron donor molecules. The electrons are transported between
a series of proteins (the electron transport chain, or ETC) embedded in the inner membrane,
resulting in the transfer of protons from the matrix to the intermembrane space. The electrons
are ultimately accepted by oxygen, which is then released from the cell in the form of carbon
dioxide and water. The process creates an electrochemical gradient of about 200 mv between
the intermembrane space (high voltage) and the matrix (low voltage). Protons flowing down the
gradient, back into the matrix, drive the activity of ATP-synthase.
Discussion of the so-called chemiosmotic hypothesis, with its impermeable membranes and ion
pumps, is certain to leave a bad taste in the mouths of those familiar with an alternative theory
of asymmetric ion distribution, namely, the association-induction hypothesis. While the exact
mechanism of ATP synthesis is debatable, it surely involves a sequential transfer of relatively
high-energy electrons, with oxygen as the terminal acceptor (Ling, 1981). This characteristic
alone is sufficient for understanding much of the pathology associated with mitochondria.
Although the oxidative respiration is very efficient, some of the proteins in the ETC may “leak”
electrons to oxygen, forming the superoxide radical, O
2
-
. The cell’s antioxidant defense system
is normally sufficient to prevent the state of oxidative stress that characterizes ALS and many
other disorders, but in a sick mitochondrion, the rate of ROS production might outpace the
activity of the antioxidant system.
Evidence of Mitochondrial Dysfunction in ALS
That ALS is characterized by a state of oxidative stress is beyond dispute. Oxidative stress is
partially inducible through exogenous toxins and nutrient deficiency as well as being the result
of mitochondrial dysfunction. There is, however, ample evidence for mitochondrial dysfunction,
and an understanding of the relationship between mitochondrial viability and cellular viability is
helpful in understanding the ALS and the other neurodegenerative disorders.
Recently, a novel method was proposed by which mitochondria retain fidelity. Mitochondria
frequently fuse and divide, in a coupled process. Remarkably, the fusion and division of two
depolarized mitochondria results in two daughter mitochondria with a greater difference in
membrane potential than the parents. There is apparently an unequal distribution of the
contents of each mitochondrion, and this process is presumed to help maintain fidelity in one of
Page 5
the daughter mitochondria at the expense of the other one. Mitochondria without an intact
membrane gradient are destined for autophagy and cannot fuse, but they can try to prevent
their fate by dividing. In some cases these divisions may result in the formation of one daughter
with an intact membrane gradient (Twig, Hyde, & Shirihai, 2008). Mitochondria in ALS have
been observed to be highly fragmented, with the obvious implication that they are depolarized
and can undergo fission but not fusion (Magrané & Manfredi, 2009).
The elimination of non-viable mitochondria is mediated by autophagy, and any process that
inhibits autophagy will promote the survival of damaged mitochondria. One mechanism that can
inhibit autophagy is a transport defect. Mitochondria are transported on microtubules by the
dynein-kinesin protein complex. Movement itself might be hindered by a respiratory defect, as
the dynein-kinesin complex requires ATP, and it has in fact been noted that depolarized
mitochondria are immobilized (Rintoul et al, 2006). Additionally, protein aggregates may
physically impede the movement of mitochondria (“Mitochondrial transport can be inhibited in
neurodegenerative diseases where abnormal proteins form insoluble aggregates in neuronal
processes.” Chang & Reynolds, 2006). Such aggregates have been observed in ALS, in the
form of neurofilaments (Bruifin et. al, 2000). Failure to localize enough mitochondria close to
the motor neuron synapse might well result in an unfeasible demand on the mitochondria that
happened to make it, and this could result in mitochondrial induction of apoptosis. Similarly,
limited mobility might impair the fidelity-preserving processes of fission, fusion, and autophagy,
which would contribute to the accumulation of mitochondrial DNA and protein damage and
exacerbate the cellular energy crisis.
Perhaps the most obvious indicator of inefficient or uncoupled respiration in ALS patients can be
found in the simple observation that ALS patients have to eat more. Despite losses of muscle
mass, their resting energy expenditure is some 10% higher than controls (Desport et al., 2001).
Furthermore, caloric supplementation with butter fat (Dupuis et al, 2004) or butter and egg yolk
(Mattson, Cutler, & Camandola, 2007) extends survival in mouse models significantly – from
20% to as much as 200%. It is worth mentioning that these studies used the saturated fatty
acids for supplementation, and that control mice were given primarily PUFAs as the source of
fatty acids. Nor should it be ignored that hyperlipidemia is apparently a protective response in
ALS, and that ALS patients typically present with more severe steatosis than non-ALS patients
(Dupuis et al, 2008). One cannot rule out a protective effect of the saturated fatty acids, which
could be derived in part from their competition with and relative stability compared to the harmful
PUFAs. Since it is well established that the saturated fatty acids protect against fatty liver
disease, a temporary suspension of our cultish beliefs about saturated fat and cholesterol might
be appropriate when studying ALS.
Excitotoxicity
Oxidative stress, while almost certainly present and pathogenic in ALS, is not probably sufficient
to account for the selective degeneration of motor neurons. While there is no simple
explanation as to why motor neurons degenerate and sensory neurons do not, there is one for
Page 6
the distinction seen in ALS between a motor neuron and a non-neuronal cell. Remembering
that damage in ALS not quite limited to neurons, and that motor neurons simply bear the worst
of it, this explanation is sufficient to account for most if not all of ALS morphology.
Neurons are susceptible to a phenomenon known as excitotoxicity. Excitotoxicity refers to the
general process by which excessive excitatory neurotransmitter and deficient cellular energy
conflate to cause an influx of calcium and initiation of the apoptotic cascade; it may be thought
of as a prolonged action potential. As in the case of oxidative phosphorylation, the action
potential may be thought of in a few ways:
According to the classical theory of the action potential, the neuron becomes transiently
permeable to the extracellular cations, sodium and calcium. This results in a rapid influx of the
cations and an establishment of electrical equilibrium, or depolarization. The closing of the “ion
channels” and the action of ion pumps restores the cell to its resting state.
According to the association-induction hypothesis, intracellular potassium is not free, but
adsorbed on the carboxyl groups of extended proteins. ATP functions as a cardinal adsorbent,
facilitating a polarized, oriented state of cell water in which sodium and calcium have limited
solubility. ATP hydrolysis results in a sort of transient chaos, a departure from the so-called
“living state.”
In each model, ATP is critical for the maintenance of the cell’s resting (living) state.
Significantly, it appears that intracellular calcium is transiently stored in the mitochondria, and
that this sequestration of calcium results in increased ATP synthesis. This represents a likely
mechanism by which the cell accelerates its return to the resting state (Miller, 1998). However,
increased ATP synthesis by mitochondria with impaired respiration results in increased
production of ROS, causing damage to proteins and nucleic acids. Thus, excitotoxicity is a
feed-forward process: calcium influx results in calcium sequestration by the mitochondria and
increased production of ATP and ROS. In terms of the association-induction model, ROS
damage proteins, which can longer bind ATP or do not assume the appropriate extended
conformation when they do. The proteins fail to polarize the cell water such that it can exclude
calcium, and the vicious cycle continues. Insufficient production of ATP itself has a similar
effect, decreasing the quantity of the cardinal adsorbent necessary for maintaining the cell in its
living phase.
In terms of the membrane-pump model, deficient ATP production and the ATP-draining effects
of ROS discussed above lead to a concentration of ATP that is insufficient to drive the sodium-
potassium and numerous other pumps located in the cell membrane. Glutamate receptors are
said to be permeable to calcium, and excessive activation of these receptors results in a
constant influx of calcium.
Excessive glutamatergic stimulation can be attributed chiefly to insufficient reuptake of
glutamate by the glial cells. The dysfunction in glumatate clearance can be further traced to a
defect in a glutamate transporter, the excitatory amino acid transporter 2 (EAAT2). Searches
for mutations in these genes have turned up negative, most likely due to cell’s noted policy of
repairing its DNA even at the cost of its life. More likely, the error occurs at the level of
transcription or translation. Indeed, aberrant EAAT2 mRNA species have been found in ALS
Page 7
astrocytes, and EAAT2 is one of the proteins known to be damaged by 4-hydroxynonal
(Robberecht & de Jong, 2000).
The vulnerability of EAAT2 to oxidative stress is one explanation for the selective vulnerability of
motor neurons. One other possible factor in the selectivity of apoptosis is related to the lower
expression of calcium buffering proteins, calbindin D-28K and parvalbumin. It is known,
however, that these proteins are expressed in the oculomotor tract and Onuf’s nucleus, which
are relatively unaffected by ALS (Jackson & Rothstein, 2000).
Apoptosis
Excessive production of ROS or prolonged stimulation by calcium (which are coincident most, if
not all, of the time) results in the initiation of the apoptic cascade. Damaged mitochondria
release their proteins, ostensibly through the opening of a mitochondrial permeability transition
pore (MPTP).
These stimulate the activity of the caspases, a family of proteases, and
DNAases, which rapidly destroy the cell. Though the mechanism of aptoptosis at this point is
rather clear, and probably very hard to reverse anyway, the events immediately preceding it are
not. The purported MPTP is more of an abstraction than an anything else:
“The precise molecular architecture of the pore remains unknown… the identity of the poreforming
protein(s) remains unknown.”
How they escape of the outer membrane is similarly problematic:
“Toxic stimuli such as oxidative stress induce translocation and integration of the pro-death members of
the Bcl-2 family (e.g., Bax, Bak, Bid) into the outer mitochondrial membrane. These proteins, by a
mechanism that remains both elusive and controversial, permeabilize the outer membrane to an extent
that allows the release of pro-apoptotic proteins from the inter-membrane space.” (Baines, 2009)
As it stands, the currently accepted mitochondrial model is not particularly helpful in explaining
the mechanisms of apoptosis. Note that the present conception of cellular biology, with its
membranes, channels, and pumps, as well as the esoteric association-induction hypothesis,
have each been sufficient to explain in rather sparse detail the mechanisms of energy
production, action potential, asymmetrical ion distribution and excitotoxicity. There probably
seemed no reason to even mention it. However, it is becoming increasingly clear that, despite
the thousands of papers authored on the subject over the last nineteen years, the MPTP model
is not generating useful therapies. A different model, in which the localization of ions and
proteins to the mitochondria is controlled by the bulk phase of the matrix, and by its
concentration of ATP, provides a better framework for understanding mitochondrial dissolution
during respiratory distress. Such a model elegantly explains the behavior of non-mitochondrial
cells, and – given the strength of the endosymbiont theory - would likely be productive when
applied to mitochondria.
Page 8
Conclusion
ALS is clearly characterized by a chronic state of oxidative stress, induced by mitochondrial
dysfunction, and exacerbated by insufficient energy intake. While glutamate excitotoxicity is
likely the major pathological mechanism, excitotoxicity itself can be traced to damage induced
by oxidative stress. Notwithstanding a few survey-based studies, there is reason to belief that
excess dietary iron and PUFAs are contributing factors, while the antioxidant vitamins and
cofactors as well as the saturated fatty acids are protective. The involvement of oxidative
stress in nearly every physiological disorder, including heart disease and diabetes, suggests
that these disorders may have a common etiology. Let it be suggested here that ALS is in fact
very closely related to diabetes, and that the obvious differences in disease presentation can be
attributed primarily to differences hormonal profiles arising in no small part from differences in
energy intake and expenditure. This idea is not unsupported (Krentz, Williams, & Nattrass,
1992).
The notion of the MPTP seems to have arisen in the same way the myriad membrane pumps
did: as a concession to the purported existence of an impermeable membrane. Rather than
searching for therapeutic targets such as the MPTP, which may or may not exist, it would be
wise to reevaluate our model of the cell as well as the political and financial interests that
influence our conceptions of nutrition and medicine. ALS treatment, like all modern treatments,
has tended towards the extravagant, the synthetic and the high-tech. Seeing as the politically
correct intellectual framework has failed to produce any useful therapies, I think a revision of
some of our ideas involving fats, vitamins, and membranes is overdue.
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Markbreton
05-13-2009, 07:38 AM
Tammy and I have often thought that one of the causes of ALS are toxins in the environment and in the foods we eat. When we went to see our Nuro on the day he told us that Tammy had ALS the very first question he asked her was " have you been exposed to any toxins or chemicals at the hospital where you work or anywhere else." HUMMMMM, why did he ask that? Tammy did get tested for free radicals and heavy metals and she had very high levels of both. I'm not a Dr. but definitely believe that all the negative changes that are happening to our environment are having a negative affect on humanity as a whole. Be it increases in cancer, MS, ALS... etc. The question is what, if anything, can we do about it if in fact my statement is true. I base my comments of facts that Tammy and I experienced...questions from the Nuro and the metals and free radical tests. Did it cause her ALS...WHO KNOWS! But these things in her body cannot have been good for her.
Mark

Maverick
05-13-2009, 11:15 AM
Absolutely. Diseases of affluence came about right about when artificial fertilizers did. There was a brief resurgence of organic farming when it was shown that crops grown on manure were much more resistant to pests than those grown on artificials. But the development of pesticides made artificial fertilizers appear useful again. I think you can draw a parallel here to the causes and management of disease in people.

There is no doubt in my mind that most chronic diseases could be averted by eating plenty of nutritious, non-contaminated, and non-intrinsically poisonous food. The last one is not so obvious, but it includes soy and liquid vegetable oils.

I am surprised the paper has not prompted discussion.

Al
05-13-2009, 12:56 PM
Well Maverick, you aren't getting any discussion here probably because the data you are using is from 2-10 years old. We probably have discussed this many times before which people would know if they bothered to do a search before trying to post links to other sites. Contrary to some peoples beliefs, you can't just post what you want, where you want. That's how moderated sites work. Someone, a real person, is filtering through the crap. As I said before, other sites thrive on that stuff, we don't.

AL.

Maverick
05-13-2009, 05:22 PM
This is the only post turned up for "polyunsaturated" and there's nothing like this for "saturated." It would appear this has never been discussed, despite the data being around for some time.

liz
05-13-2009, 06:37 PM
You acknowledged in the lead-in to the article you posted that it was 'more or less unreadable' so you shouldn't be so surprised people didn't respond. Nobody here is obligated to validate or scientifically refute your opinion. Take a look at the mission statement at the top right of the page. This is a support group not a medical research forum. How's about you give our moderators a break and go find someone else to antagonize.

GlenBrittle
05-13-2009, 06:49 PM
Maverick - if you find something current, that brings hope , let us know.

Otherwise don't waste our time.

There are some really sick people looking for a glimmer of hope and spreading old information or mis-information is counter-productive, and just cruel.

BethU
05-14-2009, 07:48 AM
Let's not feed the trolls ...

Maverick
05-14-2009, 10:43 AM
To summarize:

1) ALS is closely associated with oxidative stress and glutamate excitotoxicity. Glutamate excitoxicity is likely the result of oxidative stress, or at least exacerbated by it.

2) The polyunsaturated fatty acids and iron exacerbate oxidative stress. The PUFAs or their endproducts have been shown inhibit glutamate reuptake and kill mitochondria.

3) High cholesterol extends the lifespan of PALS. Saturated fat raises cholesterol, while the PUFAs lower it. Supplementing the diet of mouse models of ALS with butter increases their lifespan by at least 20%. It is possible to raise cholesterol in other ways, including increasing the consumption of fructose.

I am suggesting that PALS can extend their lifespan essentially by throwing out their cooking oil and breakfast cereal and eating a lot of ice cream. Since I am apparently the first one to suggest this on the forum, and since I have no credentials that would allow me to dispense advice without explaining my reasoning, I decided to provide ample justification. My attempts to post it in a more readable format were thwarted.

Offering people a way that they personally can control their disease progression is indeed offering hope. I cannot understand why drawing new conclusions from old data is counterproductive. I would like to see an objection to this suggestion that is not an argument ad hominem. I only have about a semester's worth of college biology, so it shouldn't be that hard.

joelc
05-14-2009, 12:24 PM
My attempts to post it in a more readable format were thwarted.

Give me a break! The reason for not allowing the link is because of the reason I posted above. I did it because I did not want our members computers infected.
I am starting to get a bad feeling about your attitude and motives.

Change your attitude or find somewhere else to push your theories

JamesMcC
05-14-2009, 03:03 PM
Lol ,I LOVE ICECREAM!!!!!!!!!

rocmg
05-14-2009, 06:24 PM
maverick -- i think if you can summarize your findings in a way that is user friendly )like your last post) it would make much more sense to the users here. personally speaking, any complicated, convoluted stuff i have to print out and go through with a pencil and make notes otherwise it's too jargon-y, hard to understand and very frustrating. also bear in mind, posts that are too long are oftena pain in the proverbial behind for those forum users who type with one finger as it's tiring to scroll -- as rose once pointed out.

however, in relation to the point you were making, i have also read that high cholesterol seems to correlate with slower ALS progression. however, i think most PALS would be better off doing anything and everything they can to keep their weight on, rather than stressing out about what they should eat and when - at least until some credible source comes out in total support of the high cholesterol diet. i believe the murine models in the study you were referring to were fed lard, not butter. but the principal remains the same.

GlenBrittle
05-14-2009, 06:27 PM
Lol ,I LOVE ICECREAM!!!!!!!!!

James ... Maple Walnut RULES !!!!!!

Al
05-15-2009, 03:15 PM
Prailines and cream or heavenly hash for me.

AL

hopingforthebest
05-15-2009, 08:48 PM
Maverick

Do you yourself have ALS?

My husband has iron overload disease (hemachromatosis) and two leading neurology university directors of ALS clinics in different states have told us that there is no direct relationship between iron overload and ALS. These studies are from 2009.

ALS has no treatment or cure at this time. We have read, tried and researched exactly what your articles are saying and the disease still progresses.

We are all waiting and hoping for a cure to this beast of a disease. Most of us are connected to ALS clinics and get clinical, medical up to date information from our trusted medical physicians that work each day also hoping for a glimmer of getting closer to a cure.

Thank you for time and concern but we are all a very tight close group of ALS patients and caregivers on this forum that just want suggestions for getting through "today" and hoping for a tomorrow free of this stinking disease.

Patty

Maverick
05-16-2009, 02:44 PM
I don't have ALS. I worked with people who did in the AAC industry. I was struck by how poorly they were served by the healthcare system.

The mouse models were indeed fed butter. It makes a difference, as lard has a lot of polyunsaturated fat.

You are are right about the cholesterol. The finding that cholesterol is protective isn't well supported because it came out last year. I have found one related study, which concluded that statins don't shorten the lifespan of PALS. Time will tell on that one. In any case, raising cholesterol is not the only justification for replacing polyunsaturates with saturates.

Searching for "iron als", I have found only one study from 2009 regarding iron on pubmed.

J Neurosci. 2009 Jan 21;29(3):610-9.
Dysregulation of iron homeostasis in the CNS contributes to disease progression in a mouse model of amyotrophic lateral sclerosis.
Jeong SY, Rathore KI, Schulz K, Ponka P, Arosio P, David S.

Centre for Research in Neuroscience, The Research Institute of the McGill University Health Centre, Montreal, Quebec, Canada.

Amyotrophic lateral sclerosis (ALS), characterized by degeneration of spinal motor neurons, consists of sporadic and familial forms. One cause of familial ALS is missense mutations in the superoxide dismutase 1 (SOD1) gene. Iron accumulation occurs in the CNS of both forms of ALS; however, its contribution to the pathogenesis of ALS is not known. We examined the role of iron in a transgenic mouse line overexpressing the human SOD1(G37R) mutant. We show that multiple mechanisms may underlie the iron accumulation in neurons and glia in SOD1(G37R) transgenic mice. These include dysregulation of proteins involved in iron influx and sensing of intracellular iron; iron accumulation in ventral motor neurons secondary to blockage of anterograde axonal transport; and increased mitochondrial iron load in neurons and glia. We also show that treatment of SOD1(G37R) mice with an iron chelator extends life span by 5 weeks, accompanied by increased survival of spinal motor neurons and improved locomotor function. These data suggest that iron chelator therapy might be useful for the treatment of ALS.

It appears that iron overload is well established in ALS. Please point me to the contrary evidence, as I couldn't find it.

The diet is not particularly stressful or limiting. It is certainly easier than vegetarianism or eating organic, which plenty of people find worth the trouble. Just because it wasn't suggested by a neuro doesn't mean it doesn't make sense. And believe me, it is easy to keep your muscle mass up by eating ice cream.

Thanks to those who comment constructively.

patricia1
05-16-2009, 09:54 PM
My cholestrol have been as high as 360 and i hav als 9 yrs

BethU
05-16-2009, 10:29 PM
Constructive or not, I don't think you quite get the picture of what ALS is all about. That's the problem with "one diet cures all diseases." (Someone once on the Myasthen Gravis Forum was pushing some product to "bulk up your immune system." What was wrong with that picture? MG is an autoimmune disease, and the cure ... and it can be cured ... is to put the immune system to sleep with steroids to stop the overreactions.)

Suggesting that we leave our cereals behind and eat ice cream is terrific. In fact, I've been doing just that ever since I became unable to eat anything else. If ice cream is going to cure me, I'm way overdo for that "get out of jail free" card. You do understand that PALS become unable to eat and swallow most foods eventually, and thus probably consume more ice cream per capita than others, don't you?

And ... keeping up the muscle mass with ice cream? Excess calories do not convert to muscle ... excess calories are stored as fat. But that's OK in ALS ... the point is to maintain your weight, and the only way to do that when your muscles are dying is to gain fat.

Steroid to bulk up dead muscles? I don't think so. I'm sure people with heavy musculatures lose muscle strength more slowly than those without, but the process is the same. In ALS, muscles die. You can't bulk up a dead muscle.

It's great that someone is interested in ALS and finding a cure. But your suggestions suggest a lack of real understanding of the nature of this disease. And these are old, worn-out ideas. The fact that you are "sure in your own mind" that this works really isn't going to convince anyone, especially since you seem not to know the basics of ALS.

If you're sure about this, go out and prove it with a controlled study. (What grade did you get on that paper, by the way?)

Al
05-16-2009, 10:34 PM
There was a study out of Toronto that found that statins DID accelerate the progression of ALS. It's in our archives if you'd care to look. The paper was published in late 07 or 08.

AL.

GlenBrittle
05-16-2009, 11:58 PM
I hope there are no statins in ICE CREAM ...

AL , pralines & cream is a good flavor too. Especially in a sugar cone ....

Hey Mav , you like Ice Cream ?

joelc
05-17-2009, 12:02 AM
It has to be Rocky Road - and I don't care if there are statins in it! LOL

GlenBrittle
05-17-2009, 12:35 AM
Never tried Rocky Road ... its the chocolate thing - triggers migranes.

I used to inhale DQ soft ice cream. Since the dx , I have been trying to keep away from the chemicals as much as possible , which means no DQ.

I snuck in a quick small cone the other afternoon and almost gagged on it.
I could not believe that it tasted so terrible.

Of course , when Wanda reads this ... I will hear about it ... :roll:

BarryG
05-17-2009, 02:20 AM
I vote for butterscotch so I can get the butter I need! No lardscotch ice cream for me, no sir!

liz
05-17-2009, 10:11 AM
It would be easier to eat ice cream if it would quit sliding off the spoon before I can get it in my mouth. It takes me a half hour just to eat two scoops. :roll:

I prefer mashed potatoes for breakfast. They stick to the fork and to the ribs. :wink:

BethU
05-17-2009, 10:28 AM
Liz, that's a good point. I've thought of just spreading a tarp in the drive and eating my ice cream there so my husband can hose me down afterward.

Potatoes are something I've craved since my bulbar symptoms got going, and mashed potatoes with lard, er butter ... you know, the yellow stuff ... are terrific. Plus potatoes have lots of nutrients.

Ice cream flavors: Gotta love vanilla and orange sherbet mixed. Think of all the vit. C !! :lol:

Maverick
05-17-2009, 02:38 PM
Not sure of the grade on the paper yet. It's one of those honors classes where everyone gets an A, though.

Please quote me on the steroids. I don't think I mentioned it here but it doesn't sound like a bad idea. As far as I know muscle atrophies and does not necrose. Insulin is highly anabolic for muscle and fat and nothing spikes insulin better than ice cream.

I never saw the patients I worked with eat much. They seemed to get a lot of calories from soda, which is easy to drink with a straw. I guess if everyone eats ice cream anyway, that can only help. That's not the limit of my suggestion, though.

I'm not selling statins, just pointing out that there is not a lot of research on cholesterol and ALS. Both papers exist and somewhat contradict each other:

Amyotroph Lateral Scler. 2008 Aug;9(4):223-8.Click here to read Links
Are statin medications safe in patients with ALS?
Zinman L, Sadeghi R, Gawel M, Patton D, Kiss A.

ALS/Neuromuscular Clinic, Sunnybrook Health Sciences Centre, University of Toronto, Toronto, Canada. lorne.zinman@sunnybrook.ca

Statin medications for elevated cholesterol are one of the most commonly prescribed medications worldwide. The aim of this study was to determine if statin medications affect the rate of disease progression, the severity and frequency of muscle cramping, and serum CK levels in patients with ALS. We conducted a prospective cohort study in patients diagnosed with ALS with statin medication as the predetermined exposure variable and the rate of decline of the ALS Functional Rating Scale-Revised (ALSFRS-R) as the primary outcome. One hundred and sixty-four consecutive patients with laboratory supported probable, clinically probable, or clinically definite ALS were evaluated from January 2006 to September 2007. Thirty-two patients (20%) were taking statin medications and 132 were in the control group. After adjusting for covariates, we found a highly significant increase in the rate of decline in the ALSFRS-R for the statin group (1.71 units/month) compared to the control group (1.05 units/month, pB0.0001) representing a 63% increase in the rate of functional decline. Patients on statin therapy also reported a significant increase in muscle cramp frequency and severity (pB0.0001). This study has demonstrated a strong association between statin medications and an increased rate of functional decline and muscle cramping in patients with ALS. Although this association does not prove a causal relationship, it is prudent to exercise caution and discuss discontinuation or replacement of statin medications in patients with ALS.

1: J Neurol Sci. 2008 Oct 15;273(1-2):81-3. Epub 2008 Aug 3.Click here to read Links
Influence of statins treatment on survival in patients with amyotrophic lateral sclerosis.
Drory VE, Bronipolsky T, Artamonov I, Nefussy B.

Department of Neurology and ALS Clinic, Tel-Aviv Sourasky Medical Center, Sackler Faculty of Medicine, Tel-Aviv, Israel. vdrory@post.tau.ac.il

BACKGROUND: Statins are increasingly recognized as causing muscle damage and, more rarely, peripheral neuropathy. A preliminary report that there are more cases of amyotrophic lateral sclerosis (ALS) among people treated with statins caused considerable concern. We considered the possibility that statins could affect survival in patients already diagnosed as having amyotropic lateral sclerosis who were taking statins for dyslipidemia. METHODS: We reviewed the clinical charts of 459 patients with ALS followed-up in our clinic between 1997 and 2007. Retrieved data included age, all administered medications, form of ALS at onset and survival. We compared the survival rates of patients taking any statins with that of patients not taking statins, while adjusting for other factors which influence disease progression, such as age, gender and ALS form at onset. RESULTS: 72 patients were on statins for dyslipidemia at disease onset. The doses ranged from 10-60 mg daily and varied throughout the disease course. As expected, the patients on statins were older than the non-treated ones (65.7+/-9 versus 57.5+/-13 years, respectively). After correcting for age, gender and disease form, there was no significant difference in survival between the groups. CONCLUSION: Our findings indicate that statins treatment for dyslipidemia in patients with ALS does not carry any survival risks.

Incidentally, I do like ice cream and eat a lot of it. Wal-mart actually has a good "natural" brand without a whole lot of crazy stuff in it. The banana split is highly recommended.

I wish I had the resources to do a study on the effects of diet on ALS but I don't. I am really trying to avoid the "I'm sure of it" argument and I have not claimed any curative properties for ice cream. That would expose the ice cream industry to lawsuits and my employer would fire me.:wink:

Maverick
05-18-2009, 01:17 AM
Potatoes are something I've craved since my bulbar symptoms got going, and mashed potatoes with lard, er butter ... you know, the yellow stuff ... are terrific.
!! :lol:

That is actually really interesting. Does anyone else have specific cravings?

trfogey
05-18-2009, 02:37 AM
It would be easier to eat ice cream if it would quit sliding off the spoon before I can get it in my mouth. It takes me a half hour just to eat two scoops. :roll:

I prefer mashed potatoes for breakfast. They stick to the fork and to the ribs. :wink:

Get your ice cream quotient in milkshakes, if you can still drink through a straw. No spoon required. 8)

Agree on the mashed potatoes. They could be a food group of their own as far as I'm concerned.

rocmg
05-18-2009, 10:30 PM
maverick... i'm sure in the ketogenic diet study at Mt. Sinai the mice were fed lard, and a suggestion was made that other lipids could be added for more successful results. is lard and butter the same thing in America? in the UK they are different -- lard is pig fat and butter is churned milk. e

on the topic of ice-cream... i do enjoy the ben and jerrys baked alaska. i have a lot of fun searching for the white chocolate polar bears hidden through it.. beats looking for the pigs in the pig fat.

brendapals
05-18-2009, 10:43 PM
OMG-I think I have brain freeze.........

chocolate syrup on melted vanilla ice cream for me!:razz:

sharonca
05-18-2009, 11:43 PM
I've been told at clinic from the first day. More weight - good, high bad cholesterol - good, limiting exercise - good. Works for me. Although I'm having trouble maintain weight. Have to start using that peg I had put in!
Sharonca

BarryG
05-19-2009, 12:44 AM
rocmg,
Lard and butter are definitely different things everywhere. Lard is what you use to make pie crusts (although shortening is better but has transfats so is a no-no) and butter goes on toast. I eat as much butter, whipping cream, and ice cream (all flavours) as I can. I'm sure that there is a dairy somewhere that is depending on me. If I was lactose intolerant I'd be in real trouble!

rose
05-19-2009, 09:34 AM
About cravings.... my sense of taste is just destroyed. I know this is uncommon with ALS, but not unheard of. I've repeatedly asked my doctors if maybe its another cause, but all of them feel it it is my 10th cranial nerve malfunction.

Even though usually smell and taste go hand in hand, my sense of smell from what I can tell is fine.

I wish I could remember specifically in my own time line when I first noticed a decreased taste. The person I was with remembers us having a conversation about it, but neither of us can remember when it was, not even to narrow it down to a period of a couple of months.

Anyway, because of this, I've found I crave things I can taste better. I can taste vinegar & red wine pretty well.

Chocolate is big for me. But, where I used to prefer dark, now I like milk chocolate better, and it seems like it should be the reverse except maybe because the milk chocolate is sweeter and my sense of tasting sweet has declined so much.

I love ice cream and gelato....

I've started using a powdered multi vitamin/mineral (All One brand)because of choking just one too many times on vitamin tablets. An added unexpected bonus is that it gives me a big boost in energy for a few hours after I take it in the morning. The downside is that even though its tasteless, its chalky, so although I can add it to a smoothie undetected, other beverages don't work as well, and as for making it into iced coffee.... was positively gross!

sharonca
05-19-2009, 07:21 PM
I'm lactose intolerant... Do I get any sympathy for that? No ice cream for me.

Sharonca

joelc
05-19-2009, 07:26 PM
YOU POOR DEAR - you have my sympathy for sure!

BarryG
05-19-2009, 09:00 PM
sharonca, that IS awful, you definitely have my sympathy!

rose
05-19-2009, 10:33 PM
Sharonca,

How about Tofutti (soy) based ice cream, and there are also little sandwich bars, we get them here at Trader Joe tofutti "Cuties" They're really good. A couple of my kids have gone through vegan stages of eating where all dairy was out of the question, so I've explored the world of non dairy frozen sweet things :)

Maverick
05-20-2009, 06:46 PM
Uggh. Soy should not be eaten by man or beast. Just take lactase. I hear the efficacy depends on the brand.

Coconut milk is a great source of saturated fat. A coquito (Coquito - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia@@AMEPARAM@@/wiki/File:Shot_Glass_(Standard).svg" class="image"><img alt="Shot Glass (Standard).svg" src="http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/ac/Shot_Glass_%28Standard%29.svg/40px-Shot_Glass_%28Standard%29.svg.png"@@AMEPARAM@@commons/thumb/a/ac/Shot_Glass_%28Standard%29.svg/40px-Shot_Glass_%28Standard%29.svg.png) might be a good way to dissolve vitamins. It is extremely dense and very difficult to get drunk on. It would be a decent ice cream substitute if you used another sweetener in place of the condensed milk.

Rose, are you sure that you crave what you taste as opposed to vice versa? Does anyone else get sugar or fat cravings, or specific ones like vinegar or wine?

I didn't reference the Sinai study but if you provide a citation I'll look at it. If you say it was lard, it was lard. I was referring to other studies.

On the subject of trans - trans fat has been demonized for screwing up your lipid profile. If you have ALS, that's exactly what you want. On the other hand, partially hydrogenated oils are unsaturated by definition and definitely unnatural. As a healthy person, I wouldn't eat them.

Trans fats are probably toxic but so are many drugs. So you might end up ahead of the game by eating shortening, even though in people without ALS the toxic effects outweigh the (nonexistent) benefits. I don't know much about trans fats yet but I'd bet the media and a few hard gunning scientists have blown trans out of proportion, while neglecting the proven toxicity of polyunsaturated fats.

Anyway, somebody should look seriously into trans, as I probably won't get to it for awhile.

BarryG
05-20-2009, 08:11 PM
"Does anyone else get sugar or fat cravings, or specific ones like vinegar or wine?"
WTF? I have EVERTHING cravings!!

rick/Wpg
05-20-2009, 09:27 PM
Aggghhhh!!!! My vote for best comment of the week goes to Barry by a mile!!!
Well said, Bro!!!
Rick

rose
05-22-2009, 08:47 AM
Barry,

I agree with Rick, you win (how to collect your fabulous prize will be arriving in your mail within the next 6 - 10 weeks, be sure to check your mailbox daily LOL)

Maverick,

You know how research has shown that one of the reasons its so hard to stop smoking is that the person misses the hand to mouth action.... well, not everyone has smoked, but, we, as regular everyday humans have eaten multiple times a day our entire lives. Then to not be able to do this anymore? .... as Barry so eloquently put it, WTF

I don't think that because I crave a specific category, that this is why I am able to taste it. That concept seems like it would be stating I could will myself into being able to taste something.

I think I enjoy these types of flavors more now just because almost everything else has almost no taste to it. This carries over to other types of food. An example is that now I prefer stronger cheeses, cannot taste bland ones at all, they might as well be rubber. The exception I've noticed is chocolate flavor, I used to definitely prefer dark, and now not so much, but I think its just that sugar is hard for me to taste, and the dark is not as sweet as milk chocolate...

I would be interested to know if any other PALS here on this forum have lost their ability to taste well too. As I'd mentioned in my previous post, every doctor I've discussed this with has said I have no other indicators for a cause, and that the 7th & 10th cranial nerves are the ones responsible for this, and also the nerves which innervate muscles which I had problems with first..... that even though ALS is a disease of the motor neurons, it does not always limit itself to just the motor function of nerves involved.

... and not to make light of being lactose intolerant, (I have a good friend who is, and it is a real pain) I would trade this for being able to taste other food in a heartbeat!

joelc
05-22-2009, 05:15 PM
I would be interested to know if any other PALS here on this forum have lost their ability to taste well too.

I had lost my ability to taste anything but got it back when I got my trache and vent! Go Figure???


    
   
   
   
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