Euthanasia

[bala80]

Hi all,

I know this is a morbid topic, and I'm not sure whether this has been discussed before extensively in the forum, but I was wondering fellow PALS opinions on the right to end their lives when they have progressed to a stage when they choose to go no further. I know to some the idea would be abhorrent and immoral, but to others like myself the comfort of knowing that I could end my life peacefully on my terms would allow me to go on and enjoy the time I have left moreso. I am pertified in what the future holds for me, and the idea that I could go to a quiet sleep forever when I choose to seems so comforting. I'm sure there are PALS out there who would agree.

[myooshka]

I have to admit this did enter my mind and I'm sure others. But then I really thought about it and I lost my father to suicide last year. Then I thought about my son and I would never want him to think, grandpa took the easy way out, so did my mom, and if things were tough for him at the time that he would think it was ok to choose to end your life. There were days I thought about this question and for me it is not an option, as long as I can look at my son growing I will be happy in my heart. I feel it is a different answer for everyone. Do I believe people should have the choice and that it may bring them comfort, I'm not sure. I just know for me everyday I spend with my son will be a gift. It is a very personal thing at times I think people should have the right to choose and then you hear about some people that were euthanised by Jack Kevorkian, one woman who chose to die she was forty diagnosed with Alzheimers, was not even having problems yet but ended her life because she was scared of future suffering, this I don't agree with. There is just such a fine line. It's such a personal thing depending on religion, and personal ideas. Everyone is different. For me it won't be an option, not to say I would judge anyone who thougt otherwise.

[CindyM]

Well, we usually get around to discussing almost everything evertually. Actually there are a couple of past threads on this issue. My own opinion is that everybody has to find their own path. Cindy

[luv2byte]

I think everyone has an idea of what is right and wrong for themselves which might not be the same from person to person. I also feel that if we are kind and loving enough to euthanize our pets when they are to the point of living without quality or drive then why can we not do it for our fellowman? Oregon has a Death with Dignity law that I think every state should have - for those that want/need the law and qualify they then will have their physician's assistance.

[delb]

I believe it is a persons right to end the suffering. I saw my mother die a horrible death with ALS. And my only brother chose to kill his self when he felt he was getting weaker and had ALS. I have it now, but I carry on the fight. But don't know what the future holds.

[freddiesnetty]

delb,
where you been? everything ok?
Annette

[bala80]

Hello everyone my story is as such. I'm 27 year old male who has a fast progressing form of ALS - symptoms for last 3 months - I am now at the point where I am experiencing difficulty walking, severe atrophy in the legs and constant painful fasics. I am very close to the end of my independence - and with no cother choice, what I am looking ahead to is the end - as petrifying as it is.

I'm glad I'm not alone in thinking this about euthanasia. I feel as though if I had a pill or potion in my home that I could take to end things peacefully going to sleep when things get to the stage when the suffering is overbearing - then that comfort would definitely make me enjoy the time I have left moreso - by removing that massive element of helplessness and fear. I know however here in Australia such a chemical is not available, and any means of assisted suicide is akin to murder. For terminal illnesses like ours, especially ours where there is no hope from western and alternative medicine - we should be given that right - and for those that think it is wrong can choose to ignore it.

I have always loved life, but for such a cruel twist like fast-progressing ALS to hit me at only 27 - no matter how brave a face I put on in front of people - I can't help but feel sorry for myself all the time - and what I'm going to miss out on in life - and how my family will come to terms with how this disease will take me. The only thing that could be a positive for me now is to have control over my own death - but I don't - I don't have access to a barbiturate like Nembutal - and if I did - taking it with the knowledge of my family would put them in trouble with the law - the last thing I want in this awful situation.

I'm sorry to post this morbid rant - but I live with these thoughts every minute of the day - and no friend, family member, neurologist or psychiatrist could ever understand what is going through my head. Every time I look at my parents my heart breaks at everything they have sacrificed for me and for this to happen - and for me not to be able to tell them everything I am thinking.

I have never been a religious person and do not believe in God - I have however lived a life revolving around love for family and friends and strangers and to "treat others the way I want to be treated" - I believe in the inherent decency and altruism of human beings. I therefore do not believe it is only God who can "taketh away". Also, for me to now turn around and pray to God for healing would be hypocritical to say the least. So I therefore have no moral qualms relating to suicide. And for PALS, the term should never be suicide - because the alternative outcome is the same.

The fact that six months ago if anyone would have told me that I would be in this predicament I would have thought it impossible - but I have been backed into a corner. I welcome and would immensely appreciate any advice and hope I haven't frightened anyone - I just have no one else who would understand like other people with ALS.

I applaud the state of Oregon, the right to die for a terminally ill patient should be theirs and not the Government's - in this situation it is a basic human right. I do not ask for sympathy because you guys are PALS too - I just need to get this out of my system because it is drained me emotionally. Cheers

[trustinggod]

Hi Bala80,

I am so sorry that you are going through this. You are so young. When my friend was diagnosed with ALS at the age of 43 five years ago that was thought to be a very young age for this disease.

Today marks one year since Linda (my friend) died.

Like you, Linda often thought about a way that she could "check out" before the going got too tough. She feared becoming a burden to her family and the reality of what she understood to be a horrible death. About two years into her battle with ALS Linda's stepfather was put on hospice and died in his home. Linda arrived at his home before the hospice nurse and quietly took the leftover morphine from the packet of "comfort meds" provided for hospice patients.

Over the next two years that tiny bottle of morphine sat on the shelf of the refridgerator
(safely out of reach) offering Linda the freedom to choose. Linda causally mentioned this to me one day (about 2-3 months after the fact) as I was helping her dress. She asked me what I thought about her thinking of taking it when she felt that she didn't want to go on. She also asked if I'd help her if she waited until she was unable to do it herself. I told her what I thought about the idea and that I would not be able to help her and that, in my opinion, she should not ask her husband or either of her adult
children to help her. I reminded her of what she believed (she was a Christian and we were in the same bible study for years. You can read my past posts for more info.) about trusting God in everything. She asked if I thought she would still go to heaven
if she did it. We had several discussions about this over the next several months always agreeing that God would provided exactly what she needed at exactly the right time. She wanted so badly to "fight the good fight . . ." that Paul spoke of in 2 Timothy
4:7-8 but she was also so afraid of what was to come. Over time I became her daily caregiver while her husband worked and I learned to care for her every need as she lost the ability to do even the simple things we take for granted each day. Linda often thought of that "bottle on the shelf" but decided to trust God to take care of her.

Her death came after four days of friends and family gathered around her bed loving her and laughing, praying, crying with her. She was comfortable, (hospice had provided her with her own comfort meds) not in pain and not afraid, she knew without a doubt that she would soon be in heaven. Before she died she said to all of us around her bed
"this is wonderful (having her loved ones around her singing, praying and laughing while she died) I hope it's like this for all of you too." I know that she was so glad that she chose to trust God in her death instead of using the morphine she had taken a few years before.

On her memorial card she had asked us to print the following verse from 2 Timothy;

I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. Now there is in store for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, will award to me on that day - and not only to me, but also to all who have longed for his appearing. 2 Timothy 4:7-8.

I know you said you don't believe in God. I respect your decision but I disagree with your opinion about being a hipocrete (sp?) if you were to pray to God now. God never turns his back on anyone. Until our last breath we have the choice to accept His offer of eternal life and His help in this life.


I will pray for you and, as always, for a cure to be found soon.

God Bless, Jeanne

[Lorie]

Unfortunately, I agree with you both. I do believe in "God". Although, I am Non-Denominational. I try to live by good standards and make the best decisions I can in life.

I DO KNOW THAT I COULD NOT BE DOING WHAT I AM DOING, ALONE! THE STRENGTH IS BEING PROVIDED TO ME!

I have told my husband on numerous occiasions that I don't think I could do what my brother Timothy is having to suffer with this HORRIBLE disease. Timothy had symptoms for seven years before the Doc's suspected ALS. And then DX. I am having the same early symptoms as Timothy. (that does not mean I have ALS). I told my GP yesterday. no more Neuros's for me unless it gets worse.

I did ask Timothy if I did have ALS. I am a lot of his Strength, Caregiver in many ways. He depends on me. I asked if I did, before I got too bad. Did he want to die with me? I told him to think about it and not answer me. He did say no. I have a Husband and a 14 year old daughter. He has to work and she has to go to school. I could not be a burden on them. I would not have the people to take care of me like Timothy does. And they do their best. Doing what they have to do. Not what they need to do. It is very hard for him.
My heart feel like its being eaten up by cancer.

But I see both of your points. Another thing is. When were were getting my Durable Power of Attoreny and my Medical/Living Will P.O.A for Tim. He trust me withe everything.
The Attorney told us when we were talking about the Living Will. That I can enforce it up untill a certain time. Then the doctor's would have to make the decision what to do for Tim. so in other words, a Medical Doctor could be in control of his last....Living Life.
So therefore, to me it dosen't make a lot of differnece If they can make your ultimate decision when you have suffered on your own to that point. It makes it right and OK for them to end your Life. But not you. Its such a fine Line. I will do what ever Tim wants to the extent he wants it. He can depend on me gor that. I LOVE MY BROTHER DEARLY!

I am so Heart Felt for everyone with this Disease. I hope that I will comfort you in some way to know that I am an ALS Advocate and I am very involved with doing everthing I can with this mission. (even having my own disabilities). Alot of people don't put enough time in being involved with this disease. (Just accepting it. Or Living with it). And making a difference. I have three other brothers and my my. I am the only one in our Family that has taken this Bull by the Horns and doing something with it.

I will never surrender my efforts in making a difference in ALS!

Lorie

[trustinggod]

Lourie,

Thanks for sharing your experience. You are a loving sister to your brother. He is very blessed to have you.

I was confused by what you said the doctor or attorney told you regarding who had the final say in your brothers care.

Are you saying they told you the doctors had the final say? That has not been my experience. I was there with my Father in law as he died while on hospice (in his home)
and I was there with my friend (also in her home and on hospice) and their wishes
as outlined in their DNR orders and/or Five Final Wishes document were completely followed. Of course I only have my very limited experience and don't presume to know
anymore than that. If you've never heard of the Five Final Wishes document you might be interested in looking one over. It has several parts to it that allow an individual to put into writing exactly what there preferences are regarding the dying process. For example, it asks simple questions like; would you want to have music playing or would you prefer a quiet room? Or, do you want just your immediate family with you or something different? For my situation, having this information was a great help.

Anyway, wanted to offer the above info in case it might help you too.

God Bless.
Jeanne

[quadbliss]

Hi bala80,

I am not going to try to convince you to start praying to God, or talk you out of your decision. I would however like to recommend caution in executing your choice too soon.

In my case, I was saddened and frightened by the fact that I would die an unpleasant death very soon. One day I was elated when I realized that ALS was not a death sentence. I realized that if I chose to vent, etc., I could live a lot longer. This could be a miserable existence if my vision stopped there. But I also saw that I was living the same unconscious life that most of us live. I knew there was something more. I set out on a path of personal growth. I am happy to report that 9 years after diagnosis, paralyzed from the neck down and vent dependant, I am living a deeply fulfilling, joy filled life. If I had made the decision to end my life prior to this paradigm shift, I would never have known the full potential of human existence.

I respect your decision, but realize that your perspective could change. Please don't surrender too soon.

Mike

[Icanmanz]

Lorie and Jeanne, great posts. Lorie, you are such a beautiful sister to Tim. God bless you both, and Jeane God bless you ,too for being such a dear friend!

Irma

[bala80]

I thank you guys for posting your experiences, I know it is the toughest decision anyone could ever make. I feel as if I had kids of my own and something to really live for, then I would continue on with no problem. The two things I ever wanted to really do was to travel and to find love, and now I cannot do either. If I had a slower progression I could have maybe done one or both of these things, but that is not the case. From the time of my diagnosis to the time of me losing my independence has been very short, and I wish my neuros picked this up earlier, but they were very dismissive. Taking all this into account, every minute thinking of this and of "what if" is agonising. I am currently trying to gain advice and barbiturate meds from any physician willing to provide me with these and who truly believes in palliative care. The idea that I can go into a painless eternal sleep when I choose to is really the only thing I have left now.

[Icanmanz]

Oh wow, bala! I hate it when I read between the lines, and when I find something very interesting I am in such a damn big hurry to reply, without even finishing reading the whole post. I know that is a big no no, but that is the way I am. I was reading your post about euthanizing, or the right to die, whichever, it's all the same, but any way, I am putting in my 2 cents worth, if you folks don't mind. I am putting it with a question. Don't you think that's God's decision to make? He is the only one that can call us home. I respect your, and the others' wishes, but that is my opinion. May God bless each one of you, and give you more courage. I am keeping each one of you in my prayers.

Irma

[myooshka]

Bala80 I really understand what you said about not having kids, my son is such a blessing. My symptoms started just before I got pregnant. Although I don' have a name for my illness yet, my son is what gives me the fight everyday. Personally I would find the future bleak without him, so I get what you are saying about having children of their own. Have you discussed this with anyone in your family?

[vmd]

bala80:

I believe the decision to die is in God's hands, not mine. I would not be beyond asking God to take my life earlier, however, if it was His will, given certain circumstances. One issue we need to discuss is the difference between active and passive euthanasia. In active euthanasia, the person takes measures to kill him/herself. Passive euthanasia, however, allows the person to die naturally, as long as he is given food and water, the basics for life. My concern with euthanasia is that humans are social creatures and we live and are guided by what we see in others. The modeling effect is very powerful in humans and we are comfortable imitating others, but what if the behavior we are imitating is ultimately detrimental to the individual and the society? One of my major fears about allowing euthanasia is gradualism. Initially, when euthanasia measures are passed, only individuals with irreversible and terminal conditions are allowed to kill themselves. However, in time, others want that right also. In some of the Scandinavian countries today, depressed people are demanding the right to die. Where does it stop? No. I have to believe life is absolute and all life is precious. Mike and Al and many others on this board serve as excellent examples of how any of us who develop illnessses, no matter how lethal, can live fulfilling lives as long as we choose to live.

Speaking of God, bala80, I will keep you in my prayers and ask that you keep me in yours. Thank you.

[jakk]

Very well said, Jeanne.

[John1]

I think that the Christians have high-jacked Bala80's thread. He made it clear that he is not religious and being lectured by evangelicals is clearly not what he came for. If you wish to start a separate thread debating the existence of God and why He inflicts some people with ALS do so but leave Bala alone. I find statements like " Don't you think that's God's decision to make?" offensive and repugnant. Bala has enough to deal with. The posts such as that of Quadbliss are for more helpful and thoughtful.

The fact that many of these and like-minded people also believe stem cells have "souls" and therefore have backed Bush's veto of government backed stem-cell research in the USA for the past 7 years just fuels my anger. Quite possibly without that we would be choosing between various cures by now instead of having to choose a palatable method of dieing.

[Al]

Oh Geez Here we go again. Play nice folks. Remember I am using a head mouse now so I type slow. Have mercy.
AL.

[bala80]

Hi all,

I definitely do not want this to degenerate into a God debate. I have posted in a thread called scared of ALS recently which explains more about my situation and my mental state with regards to this.

I am an atheist, and as such, I believe that when we die there is nothingness, no heaven, no hell, etc. I respect the view of those who believe only God can take away life, and they can definitely apply that to their situations. But terminally ill people who do not should have the choice to end their lives, and if they go to hell for doing so then it is their decision and has no effect on the lives of those who choose to live by God's word.

I think the argument of "where does it stop" is completely far-fetched, no compassionate humane society will ever offer euthanasia to mentally ill patients - the debate has always been and always will be in regard to terminally ill pateints with no hope of recovery. Yes, life is amazing and precious, but when life becomes 'a living hell' for some people with no return, then they must have the choice. For someone who has no idea of what they are going through to withold that choice from them is plain wrong in my view.

Either way, in my case, I have an agressive form of ALS (months left) and the violent fascics and constant pain have left me with little quality of life - meds do not help. I want to live so badly but I am not going to, so all I have left is the hope that I can end the suffering when I feel I cannot go on any longer. The only thing that would make me feel better about my situation right now is a bottle of Nembutal. The fact that I am denied this is another pain to endure.

[laurel]

Hi,
This evening I watched a documentary "The Suicide Tourist". It followed the end of the life of a 59 yr. old professor from England with ALS. He had to have his records sent to Switzerland, attend an interview with two doctors, and once approved he returned to Switzerland and was assisted in taking his life. The cost was approximately $4500.

The professor didn't believe in an after life. He was deteriorating rapidly and was on a machine to ventilate him. He feared that he would be allowed to suffer once he lost his speech and ability to move his arms--as he wouldn't be able to tell anyone how he felt at that point. He was very afraid of dying and he still loved life. But the fear of suffering drove him to his decision.

I have always been pro assisted suicide. But the documentary left me confused. His death was very empty and lonely compared to deaths I have seen in palliative care settings here. He went to a bleak apartment with two volunteers who asked him to sign that he understood that what he was about to drink would end his life. His wife was present, but she was very detached in presentation throughout the documentary. He appeared to be so alone and so terrified. No one put their arms around him. He drank his drink with a look of terror and fell to sleep shortly thereafter and then died within 45 minutes.

Somehow that made me wonder about what the man was really seeking. He said he didn't want to suffer. Surely, that is possible with a good physician who understands all stages of ALS? He said several times that he loved life and was finding it hard to make the decision to end his life, but that fear of suffering compelled him to take his life. I think perhaps fear of suffering is something many people who seek assisted suicide grapple with. I have seen very supportive loving deaths in palliative care units where individuals did not suffer and were surrounded by loving people (sometimes just care givers when they didn't have family). And they left life naturally in the sense that they were well medicated and comfortable, but were not given so much drugs that it stopped their breathing. I think that after watching the documentary I would prefer to be surrounded by loved ones in a palliative care unit, well medicated, and comfortable but not taking it to the point of taking my own life as I wouldn't want to leave this earth any earlier than I have to.
Laurel

[CindyM]

This leaves me where I started on this thread. We all have to find our own path. And Al is right. No matter how much you think you have found that path and no matter how badly you want others to join you on it, at the end of the day we must each make our own decisions.

Now, if somebody wants to start another thread to debate the pros and cons of letting people decide for themselves what they believe in and how they want to lead their own lives, I will be happy to elaborate what I mean.

But John1 has a point. The best we can do for Bala is wish peace and serenity and remind you, Bala, that you are not alone right now. Eventually we will all make our final transition alone, but for now we can and should support each other and wish each other peace and serenity. Cindy

[Gina]

Bala80, i feel so bad for you i wish i could help.I read your posts yesterday and asked my husband today who also is in the late stages of als what he thought about what you had to say he agreed.I am so torn i do not know what to say.I hate to see my husband suffering .I just tucked him into bed and it said to me"it is getting so hard"....i hate to watch him suffer and i dont know the answer to your question.All i can say is that i dont think that any of us have the right to judge and i believe that my god is an all forgiving god!I dont know if i have helped you or not but i just wanted to say that i am thinking of you and hoping that maybe you are just going through a really rough time right now and that thier are better days ahead for you.

[vmd]

Apparently, it was my post that some of you found offensive. I am curious, though, why is it offensive to believe that God is in control of my life and my death? That is my belief. If a poster said they believed in God, but another poster said that the person himself is in control of his life, not God, would that be offensive to the original poster?

The best that I can do for bala is to pray for him. If a person does not believe in God, he may find that unnecessary, but, as a believer, that is the best that I can do for him. If he was living closer to me, I would help him in every other way that I could to make his life comfortable and offer him support. Of course, I could not help him try to hurt himself, because I do not believe that, but I would try to do whatever else he requested to make his life comfortable and that I could reasonably do.

It is because bala and I, and many others here are experiencing a life-threatening situation that we are here. We can disagree on issues, I hope.

[scared of als]

I didnt think you had als????tell me about your eye floaters.

[Thumbs Up]

Hi:

When my mother passed away in February 1992 we got caught in the middle of this much debated topic. I will try to give you the coles version. When my mother was dz with ALS, my father was dz with lung cancer, it was his second. So we had to put my mom and dad in a nursing home, because my dad could no longer take care of her, they removed half his lung and he went thru chemo. My mother went into respitory arrest and since the nursing home staff did not know how to handle the situation they called 911. The emerg dr explained that since 911 was called he had to resuscitate. This was in Oct 1991, she was on life support until Feb 15 1992. There were 2 active debates going on thru the courts, Nancy B and Sue Rodriguez. Nancy B was on life support with a similar rare paralysis and Sue R had ALS and was fighting for her right to die. If anyone is interested and are not aware there is a movie made on the Sue R. story starring Wendy Crewson and Al Waxman. It is a must see movie on the euthanasia debate if anyone is not familiar with these cases. Anyway back to my mother, she was basically stuck on life support because of the debate of does disconnecting someone from life support, is this euthanasia? When my sister was dz 3 months later and after seeing what my mom went thru she made sure that she had a living will. She wanted to live every day with her husband and son but at the end she did not want to go thru what our mom went thru. ALS is a cruel disease but to prolong death is torture.

I hope this is not TMI but the moral of the story make sure that your wishes are clear.

Norma

[MtPockets]

I respect the opinions of all those who have posted on this subject. It is a hard one to talk about without stirring up some deep feelings. I can only add that as a Christian I have strong opinions about this also. Everyone has to die at some time. Whether it's at 30 from a car wreck, or 62 from ALS. This is one thing we all have in common, death. It comes to us all eventually.

As we can see from the various posts on this there are many different opinions and thoughts about the final process. I have been in the room when people have died peacefully. After enduring years of pain from bone cancer. It was such a relief to see them released from the pain of this life and to pass on. Finally the pain and suffering was gone.

I know it's hard for people who do not believe in God to understand how anyone could look forward to death with complete peace. There is no fear for me. There is great expectation. I feel compassion for those of you who do not have this same feeling and I hope and pray that somehow you can find it before the end.

God Bless
Capt AL

[bdyle]

As I read over this thread earlier today I wasn't going to respond, but the more I thought about you bala80 I had to. I would like for you to think about something, I know you said you were an athiest, you don't believe in God, Heaven, or hell. And you said that when you die there is nothingness. Just suppose there is something to all of this and when you pass away there really is a heaven and a hell. Is this a chance you want to take, people that have not trusted in Jesus Christ as their saviour will open their eyes in hell, this is a horrible place, I can assure you it will be much greater than the pain of ALS. You said it would be hypocritical for you to call on God now, but your wrong my friend, the God we serve is a forgiving God. All you have to do is believe on his Son Jesus Christ and be saved and forgiven. Please just think about it and don't take that chance on nothingness. There is so much more I would like to say, but my typing abilities aren't that great anymore. I know I will probably get a lot of flack from this, but bala80 I not trying to cram God down your throat, I am just a messenger, the decision is yours. May God Bless you my friend and touch your heart, and I will be praying for you and everybody that has ALS. Also I know your feelings about this disease, I was dx on Dec. 6, 2005 and I'm trying to live every day to the fulliest.

[quadbliss]

bdyle,

Please remember that the Christian story is only one of many perspectives, in fact, it is a minority position on this planet. It is not helpful to threaten people with something that is "much greater than the pain of ALS". We must be more tolerant of people with views different from our own.

Mike

[CindyM]

Said so well and so calmly, Mike! I can't thank you enough for such a reasoned response. We would all do well to remember your words. Cindy

[bdyle]

Mike,
I apologize, I did not mean this as a threat to anyone, I just used a bad choice of words.

[quadbliss]

No problem. I understand that your post was generated by love, and a genuine desire to help. :-D

Mike

[John1]

...Just suppose there is something to all of this and when you pass away there really is a heaven and a hell. Is this a chance you want to take, people that have not trusted in Jesus Christ as their saviour will open their eyes in hell................the God we serve is a forgiving God.
What's wrong with this picture?

[MtPockets]

I believe in the wind, but I cannot hold it or see it. There are many things every day that I believe, even though I have never personally touched them. I believe volcano's are real, lava is real, the moon is real. Why? Facts support enough evidence that I can choose to believe in them. I choose to believe Jesus died for me and my sins even though I never met Him. It is a historical FACT that he lived and died. Not just a story.

I know where bdyle was coming from with his words of concern.

It is so hard for me as a Christian to feel in my heart that something is so real, so true, and I cannot understand how everyone could not see it. When I feel this way and get to know, love, and have compassion for the others on this forum, I almost feel as if you are a part of my extended family.

If I see a family member in pain or in need of some kind I would do everything in my power to try to help them before it was too late. Just as recently my grandson had to undergo brain surgery and I did all I could possibly do to help in time of need. Because in my mind this is what family members do for one another.

If your son is doing drugs do you just tolerate this? If your daughter is a drunk, do you tolerate it? Toleration is not the problem. Trying to get people to understand and face what we consider the absolute TRUTH is what we are saying. Not because I am trying to scare them into believing in God. I am only trying as best I know how in my meager own way to share what is in my own heart. This was the great commission that Jesus left to all believers,

Matthew 28; 18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: 20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

God gives you and I give you, the right to choose whatever you want to believe it or reject it. But, I feel you must know the options available to you before your life is over. If you were on drugs I would recommend you get into a drug rehab program, alcohol, get into an alcohol rehab program.

If you live a life of denying there is a GOD who sent His son to die that you might have everlasting life, Get into God's program for your life before it is too late. Out of love, I must tell you about this, not out of a feeling of being judgmental or placing blame or guilt on you. I am not trying to cram God down your throat. Just sharing some heart felt feelings that have grown into my life over 62 years of life experiences.

Question for all of you? Why is it when anyone on this forum mentions Jesus, hell, heaven, or God you go into a panic mode and attack that person as not being tolerant? You talk of being an atheist, you can talk all about life just ending and we don't jump all over your case.

But, let one Christian try to share their heart felt feelings and thoughts about life after death, about how Jesus died that you might have everlasting life, about how our peace and confidence is settled in the God of our fathers and you attack. It just seems strange does it not? Now who is not being tolerant?

I am not trying to start an argument here. I am just defending the right to share with others what we believe without starting a war. If you want to attack, argue, whatever email me at shakeymarble@cableone.net

Please let us use this forum to build one another up and encourage one another to be able to walk in their own beliefs to the end of time without attacking them. Do you have any idea how this makes them feel? Do you care? When someone of faith opens up their heart to you and you respond as you have at times, it is like a knife has been stabbed into their heart.

Oh yes that's right. Society says today everyone has to be politically correct.

Christians are a minority? If you have a Christian opinion then leave it on the thread "For Christians" called Encouragement for Hurting Christians.

You might as well say, "Shut up and go away, your opinion is not wanted here".

One more word of advice that I know you neither want or will believe:

Proverbs 16:25, "There is a way that seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death."

And I leave you with my own view from the word of God,
Romans 12:18, If it be possible, as much as in you lieth, be at peace with all men.

God Bless
Capt AL

[bdyle]

Al, thanks for the words of encouragement. I was just expressing my heartfelt concern for bala80.

[JAKE]

bdyle & mtpockets, Your posts were very enlightening and done out of genuine concern. I also have noticed a long time ago that anytime you mention God, people want to get very offensive on these forums. But thats ok, I would rather them get offensive, than me not relate what God lays on my heart to say. BTW, bdyle I did'nt think you used a bad choice of words whatsoever.

[Steve100]

Hi - I am not a believer, but am not so arrogant as to say God definitely does not exist.(I have beliefs myself that some may find wacky). I can see how people's faith in God sustains them through rough times and I'm genuinely pleased for them, am happy when someone wishes me 'God bless' and have been moved when people are saying prayers for others. Encouraging people to have faith, explaining the comforts it brings you, and the love it fosters is one thing, but to tell someone already going through such a hard time with this disease that they are going to hell for not believing in Jesus is a bit much to take, and entirely counterproductive.

This is not an attack on anyone, especially as it seems to have been sorted amicably. It's just my position :)

[quadbliss]

Al,

Please accept my apologies for submitting a post that could be interpreted as an attack. I went back to re-read my post from the perspective you articulated, and I see how you could perceive it as adversarial. I did not intend it that way. My intention was to gently point out that telling a man already suffering emotionally and physically from a recent ALS diagnosis that he would soon experience a fate more painful than ALS because of his spiritual views, was not helpful. After further reflection on my statements I realize I was too direct, and I apologize to any one who felt attacked or chastised. Please forgive me.

My goal in this thread was to promote compassion, not anger or division. I believe each of us is entitled to their own spiritual beliefs, as long as their religious expression doesn't harm others. (I am not an atheist.)

Mike

[Al]

I am sure no one here meant to insult or hurt anyone's feelings or beliefs. WE do not do that on THIS forum. That can be done on the other less caring forums that are out there. Right?
AL

[MtPockets]

Thanks so much for all your comments. I hope we can agree to disagree? We each have our own beliefs, morales, and lifestyles. In the end it's always our choice to be what we are and believe. Thank you for allowing me to be me. I do love this family, all of you, and feel for your suffering.
God Bless
Capt AL

[MtPockets]

The following was written by Ben Stein and recited by him on CBS Sunday Morning Commentary
"Here with a few confessions from my beating heart:
I have no freaking clue who Nick and Jessica are. I see them on the cover of People and Us constantly when I am buying my dog biscuits and kitty litter. I often ask the checkers at the grocery stores. They never know who Nick and Jessica are either. Who are they? Will it change my life if I know who they are and why they have broken up? Why are they so important? I don't know who Lindsay Lohan is either, and I do not care at all about Tom Cruise's wife. Am I going to be called before a Senate committee and asked if I am a subversive? Maybe, but I just have no clue who Nick and Jessica are. If this is what it means to be no longer young. It's not so bad.

Next confession:
I am a Jew, and every single one of my ancestors was Jewish. And it does not bother me even a little bit when people call those beautiful lit up, bejeweled trees Christmas trees. I don't feel threatened. I don't feel discriminated against. That's what they are: Christmas trees. It doesn't bother me a bit when people say, "Merry Christmas" to me. I don't think they are slighting me or getting ready to put me in a ghetto. In fact, I kind of like it. It shows that we are all brothers and sisters celebrating this happy time of year. It doesn't bother me at all that there is a manger scene on display at a key intersection near my beach house in Malibu. If people want a creche, it's just as fine with me as is the Menorah a few hundred yards away I don't like getting pushed around for being a Jew, and I don't think Christians like getting pushed around for being Christians. I think people who believe in God are sick and tired of getting pushed around, period. I have no idea where the concept came from that America is an explicitly atheist country. I can't find it in the Constitution, and I don't like it being shoved down my throat. Or maybe I can put it another way: where did the idea come from that we should worship Nick and Jessica and we aren't allowed to worship God as we understand Him? I guess that's a sign that I'm getting old, too. But there are a lot of us who are wondering where Nick and Jessica came from and where the America we knew went to.
In light of the many jokes we send to one another for a laugh, this is a little different: This is not intended to be a joke; it's not funny, it's intended to get you thinking.
Billy Graham's daughter was interviewed on the Early Show and Jane Clayson asked her "How could God let something like this happen?" (regarding Katrina) Anne Graham gave an extremely profound and insightful response. She said, "I believe God is deeply saddened by this, just as we are, but for years we've been telling God to get out of our schools, to get out of our government and to get out of our lives And being the gentleman He is, I believe He has calmly backed out. How can we expect God to give us His blessing and His protection if we demand He leave us alone?" In light of recent events...terrorists attack, school shootings, etc.
I think it started when Madeleine Murray O'Hare (she was murdered, her body found recently) complained she didn't want prayer in our schools, and we said OK.
Then someone said you better not read the Bible in school . the Bible says thou shalt not kill, thou shalt not steal, and love your neighbor as yourself. And we said OK.
Then Dr. Benjamin Spock said we shouldn't spank our children when they misbehave because their little personalities would be warped and we might damage their self-esteem (Dr. Spock's son committed suicide). We said an expert should know what he's talking about. And we said OK.
Now we're asking ourselves why our children have no conscience, why they don't know right from wrong, and why it doesn't bother them to kill strangers, their classmates, and themselves.
Probably, if we think about it long and hard enough, we can figure it out. I think it has a great deal to do with "WE REAP WHAT WE SOW".
Funny how simple it is for people to trash God and then wonder why the world's going to hell.
Funny how we believe what the newspapers say, but question what the Bible says.
Funny how you can send 'jokes' through e-mail and they spread like wildfire but when you start sending messages regarding the Lord, people think twice about sharing.
Funny how lewd, crude, vulgar and obscene articles pass freely through cyberspace, but public discussion of God is suppressed in the school and workplace. Are you laughing?
Funny how when you forward this message, you will not send it to many on your address list because you're not sure what they believe, or what they will think of you for sending it.
Funny how we can be more worried about what other people think of us than what God thinks of us.
Pass it on if you think it has merit. If not then just discard it... no one will know you did. But, if you discard this thought process, don't sit back and complain about what bad shape the world is in.
My Best Regards . honestly and respectfully.
Ben Stein"
He said it all for me
God Bless
Capt AL

[vmd]

Capt. Al:

Thank you for posting this article.

[jimercat]

Interesting and succinct Capt. AL!

Bala, I respect your point of view and hope you will be able to find peace in whatever form it takes.

[CathyAmanda]

Hi All,

While I accept and understand that this topic was bound to spark a huge debate. Whats the saying politics and religion should never be discussed between friends and here we all are trying to tackle both in such emotional circumstances........Oooopsie.

I think that some may have missed the bigger picture. I was saddened when I read Bala,s post more because along with suffering from this cruel disease he is also suffering an understandable severe case of depression. Bala heve you talked to your doctor about what may be able to be done chemically to possibly help with this. I dont pretend to know if there is but at at a time like this it breaks my heart to know that you are suffering so emotionally as well as phsyically.

My dear friend died in Feb this year from ALS and he also had a fast progressive form. While he had a short time and long battle with the disease he had good days and bad days he also shared your view and could only take controll when he was almost gone. Anyway my point is he had more good days than bad days. I would love for you to be able to have some good days in amongst all of this. Not for your family, not for your friends but for YOU............

Please try..............

Cathy

[judylyne]

I was a hospice nurse for years. I have taken care of terminally ill young and old people. I have had people in terrible pain beg me not to let them die. I've had people beg God to let them die. I felt deep compassion for them and their families. I know that most of the ones I cared for were kept as comfortable as possible. I don't have a fear of my husband suffering Because I know what can be done to relieve that.

[bala80]

Hi all,

Sorry for the brief absence, i have just been trying to get my head around things and what I am going to face. Bdyle, I was not deeply offended by your comment, and I realise your intentions were sincere, and I thank for for your ongoing concern. Mike I thank you as well for your support in my feelings regarding our final days. Yes I am depressed, but that is minor compared to my physical state, and I'm sure you agree that depression comes free with your diagnosis of ALS....

What fills my days now is daydreaming of things I would have done if I could, and places I wanted to see which I never will. It makes me sad, but somewhat happy at the same time. It just sucks that when you mind is in a better place, a sudden violent fascic will bring you back to reality (my mind has become immune to the constant regular ones!). I don't think a therapist would do any good to me, and any medication would be futile at this point.

I would like to share with you guys my current travel fantasy. If you haven't already got it, download Google Earth - a wonderful program - the next best thing. I am an Australian from Greek descent - and I always wanted to travel and discover largely untouched Greek islands in the Aegan Sea. In Google Earth, type in Samothraki, Kasos, Gavdos, etc. You can navigate around and click on the blue dots of certian places which bring up a photo of the place. Looking at the sheer beauty of places like these takes me away for a while and makes my heart sing....

Oh if only we saw life pre-ALS how we see it post-ALS - and to think of the past insecurities you had about yourself and your life and why you held back and to just think "you moron, you had life and you didn't even know it". I even know my parents now, the people who sacrificed so much for me whom I didn't sit down to get to really know, I love them and always have loved them but never really KNEW them (sorry gotta wind this up - getting too emotional now) they definitely do not deserve this. I guess each day is a struggle for all of us with this disease, and I am glad I have a medium with other PALS like you guys who can understand my thoughts. Again, I'm sorry for the depressing rant, but there still shines a bright spark within me helping me to soldier on. I send you all my heartfelt best wishes to keep fighting if you still have the chance...

[CindyM]

What fills my days now is daydreaming of things I would have done if I could, and places I wanted to see which I never will.

A wise person once told me we cannot correct the past. She said, "We can only correct the future." I have to admit it took me awhile to figure out what in blue blazes she was talking about! :-D

[Clbrink]

Albert Einstein:
True religion is real living; living with all one's soul, with all one's goodness and righteousness.

I believe it is all about intentions, no matter what choices you make in life! If you are reading this you still have LIFE! You can still share, you can make a difference for the people around you. They will always hold onto the memories, these moments, that they will carry with them, are in your control, nobody and nothing can ever change that!


Elbert Hubbard:
Religions are many and diverse, but reason and goodness are one.

[ZenArcher]

I'd like to share a few thoughts. First my stand on discussions of religion. My beliefs are what they are. I could be an atheist, an agnostic, a catholic, a muslim or one of a hundred others. If you would like to know my views come to my house, meet my family and I and get to know me for who I am then we can discuss my beliefs. History has shown that humanity is quick to make judgments of people based on their religion or lack thereof. Because of that I want you to know me for who I am and look me in the eye then we can discuss religion. I don't assume anyone is going to make a snap judgment based on my answers but I opt not to make it a point of discussion until I and the other party know each other and the question is asked.

My second thought is concerning ALS and depression. I don't want to sound morbid but from the day we were born we've been moving closer to death. A diagnosis of ALS doesn't change that. For all I know an ALS diagnosis may prolong my life. If I didn't get the diagnosis I would be traveling much more for work. I could've been killed in a car accident or plane crash. The only thing an ALS diagnosis brings is a realization of our own mortality something which has always existed but we usually refuse to see. The question is do you want to live the rest of your life being depressed because you've been forced to face the fact that you are mortal or do you want to LIVE.

Lastly and finally to the topic of euthanasia. To me this is a personal decision to be made by an individual and their family alone. In the end I believe the decision is the individuals only. Whatever the individuals reasons may be for no longer wishing to continue they must weigh those against their own beliefs and make the decision. I, as an outsider, would not comment one way or the other simply because I don't wish to make the decision any harder or simpler either way.

Now realize that this is how I look at things and it is only my intention to share. We each deal with religion and mortality in our own ways.

[CindyM]

Someone on another thread awhile back said that none of us are guaranteed a long life. Sounds simple enough but harder to accept when the realization comes home.

[quadbliss]

Hi bala80,

Your current journey into self discovery sounds very much like the trail head of the incredible path I am currently travelling. I truly believe that if you can stick it out and get beyond the depression, you are in for an exhilarating ride. Here is a piece I wrote for my website years ago. See if your soul recognizes any of it.

Even the word death makes some people uncomfortable, but I have always accepted it as a very natural part of every life on this planet… until it came knocking on my door. When I was first diagnosed with ALS, death looked me square in the eye, and it was terrifying. When I finally learned to calmly accept it, death became my companion and has been ever since. This may sound morbid, but it is actually the main component to my passion for life. We are all mortal. Any one of us could die before we lay our head on the pillow tonight. I have been lucky enough to receive the opportunity to really comprehend this information, and the time to use it.

I feel the fleeting nature of life, and this allows me to fully enjoy everything around me and every experience. My disease has limited the activities I can participate in, but it seems worth it. The many things I can still experience and learn about, are so much more fulfilling and meaningful. I seem to have the perspective to understand my position in the universe, and from this position I look out in awe.

There is also the ability to live fully in the present. This means allowing myself to explore depths of emotion that I had suppressed in the past. I would have been afraid to go there. Having unlocked those gates, I realize that I was missing a crucial connection to humanity; true empathy. To feel the joy and pain of others is to break down the walls of arrogance, prejudice, and ignorance that have led to man’s ugliest moments. Allowing these emotions to flow, feels natural and somehow cleansing. I feel more alive.

For me, death has been an invaluable teacher who has shown me the secrets of true happiness. I don’t know if I would have ever really understood these concepts had I not been forced to view my own mortality.

Live with a meaningful purpose. Do not just brush by others. Take the time to touch them as you pass. :-D

Mike

[myooshka]

Mike you have such a wonderful way of expressing yourself, I know it always makes me feel lighter to read your posts. Bala hang in there! I understand what you mean about all of the what if's and should haves. I found it all consuming in the beginning of my illness, it's only human nature, to grieve our lives,ourselves and what could have been.When we are sick we mourn ourselves, the lives we once had. It is for me the hardest thing I have ever had to do, especially as a former perfectionist, to feel so vulnerable and to give up the life I had. This is now a new chapter, one that is hard to accept, but I have no choice. One member on here told me if we truly live in the moment and cherish the moment it will prepare us for the future and there will be nothing we won't be able to handle. Bala thinking of you and wishing you many happy days ahead.Mya

[CathyAmanda]

Bala,

I really was not trying to downgrade the physical and emotional pain you must be feeling. It was honest to goodness sadness that made me respond in a the way that I did....

ZenArcher

I agree wholeheartedly with what you say about accepting our own mortality and that we could all have a tragic accident at any time. My friend Garry who died of MND lived a wreckless and carefree life prior to his diagnoses. His family had many calls from hospitals, police etc to say that he was seriorsly injured in car accidents, bashings and the like. We truly used to believe that we were going to get a call that he had died goodness knows where and goodness knows how. We thank god that due to his MND 9not that he died) but that when he did we all got to be with him and say goodbye and that we love him......

We are now facing this disease again in his sister (my best friend)

Again Bala I am sorry if you felt that I was judging your feelings I was not.

Cathy

[robc]

I live in Oregon, the only state in the US where it is legal for a physician to help a patient die.

I don't know I'd go that route, but it definitely gives me huge piece of mind to know that assistance is there if I need it.

I don't worry about the moral implications - maybe I should, but I don't.

[bdyle]

I appreciate your response, I sent you a pm but I was told you may not have a pm box. Again my intentions were not meant to hurt you, I like what you said about getting to know your family, family and friends are very dear to have, mine have been such a great support to me during this disease. God bless and stay positive.

[Montana Carol]

I have read all the posts on this thread with great interest. Since my diagnosis, I have often wished we had a law in Montana permitting assisted suicide. I am a committed Christian, but I believe Jesus came to teach us how to love God and our neighbor, not to perpetuate the Hebrew "Laws." I believe God's mercy is beyond human understanding, certainly beyond our human concepts of sin and guilt.

With all due respect to you younger folks who still have so much to live for, I'm 71 and don't want to live long enough to become immobile. I don't want my husband to have to take care of me for a long time when I can't do anything, although I know he would do it for me with love. I'm hoping my breathing will give out before that happens, but if it doesn't, I have heard that stopping food and water is a fairly easy way to end my life. I read that it is not against the law, and healthcare providers are permitted to give sedatives for comfort during the process, which is usually only a few days.

Has anyone here had any experience with this that you'd like to share?

[Al]

Carol, you should contact your local Hospice. They can give you information on this subject.
AL.

[CindyM]

My Mom- who will be 85 in two weeks, is in the final stages of Alzheimer's. Early on she signed clear and legal directives that, when she is no longer able to swallow foods, she should NOT be given a feeding tube, or resuscitated in any manner.

I think your feelings are common and should be respected.

[happy]

Carol,

Reading your post breaks my heart. I am so overwhelmed thinking that during suffering you would have to even think about making a decision like that. I pray that our loving Father will hold you closely and give you comfort.

Robin

[hope]

As I sit here and read the posts my heart goes out to all of us who are suffering with this horrible disease. I am not going to say either way if I belive in god or do not believe in god, this to me is personal. If it is okay to say though there is not one person
that I know of who knows what happens when we die or where we go. I feel focusing what is real right now that I can see is my loved one suffering, the family an friends all suffering. Life is precious. The pain of this disease is hard to cope with. It hurts so much. We are all trying to find comfort. Being here in the moment and giving all the comfort, kindness and caring that one can give is
what we all need. Everyone is searching. We could be looking for something that is right in front of us. Our loved one. I believe holding my loved one, wiping the tears, making him smile, hugging him, reading to him and keeping his mind full of life that the feelings of wanting to leave go away. Yes you are all right, this is very painful and the suffering is hard to describe but for my loved one and I finding ways to feel life is what keeps us going and not thinking beyond. This is only my personal feelings. I do not mention religion because I feel I do not know what is beyond and I cannot comment on something that I really know very little about. If I lived in the after life I would be able to voice my opinion but for today what helps my loved one who is very ill keep going is the hugs that are given, the smiles, and knowing that he will not go through each day alone in the suffering, I will be right by his side to keep him as happy as I possibly can.

hope.

[Montana Carol]

Beautifully said, Hope, and thanks to all for your thoughts. Bala, I hope you're getting some comfort from all these recent posts, and that you are finding some joy in your days to make them worthwhile. You young PALS are the ones who have the hardest road to travel, and I hope you have a CALS as loving and caring as some of the wonderful people here who are ready and willing to travel that road every day with their loved ones. God bless them all! Carol

[Brenda Bowman]

My heart goes out to you .My son died last year he was 33. Having difficulty breathing (he refused to be vented). He was taken to hospital and vented. We live in another state. Did not hear of his death til the folling day. His (girlfriend had him leave everything to her life insurance etc.). Make sure you tell ypur parents what you want they will look out for you. I will pray for you. Love, Brenda

[CindyM]

Brenda, are you Chad's Mom? I think of him often. Cindy

[Icanmanz]

Oh Brenda, I am so sorry to hear that you weren't there when your son passed. What other state were you in? Were you aware that he was that close to the end? God, that is terrible. I was with my son (38) when he passed 11 mos. ago. Never in my wildest dream I thought that I would watch my son expire. Let me tell you, I didn't know where the courage to watch him die came from, but it was there. My Creator gave me the courage, it had to be Him.
Sorry to hear what that ole' gal did. You gotta watch them. I know I wouldn't let me son's gal walk all over him, I fought her to the teeth. I was not about to let her run the show, and I proved it to her. I told her that when our Father gave him to me I streched out my arms to welcome him to this world, and I was giving him back to Him. It was up to me not her, because she was all about gimme, gimme! Sorry for the rant Brenda. God bless you. I know your dear child is watching over you. Take care. I remember you!

Irma

[Al]

Yes Cindy Brenda is Chad's mom. Brenda, I hope as time goes on the days will become easier for you. Quite a few of us still remember Chad and what a great guy he was.
AL.